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Wind powered Turbines, Etc., And Their Costs To The Public
#41
JohnL, even a 1mm thick foil would weight 1000 times the weight of the International Space Station... because it would have to be several square miles large.
Also how to stabilize an object of this size and in far orbite is still unkown science.
Add to this the various structures and devices to contain and funel this energy.
It will be like sending ten aircraft carriers into space. Something I have seen on dump-ground planet Alpha X-86 from the movie "Soldier" only.

Of course we can do it smaller as an experiment but it will be irrelevant in term of electricity consumption on a statistical basis.
I think the russians have already tested something like that.
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#42
Wind Farms Provide Negligible Useful Electricity

http://ff.org/centers/csspp/pdf/20060331_wind.pdf


Abstract

Wind farms (i.e. local assemblies of wind turbines) for power generation can only provide negligible useful electricity to grid supply systems. Because they provide intermittent only power, they merely displace
thermal power stations onto standby mode while the thermal power stations wait for the wind to change.Wind farms make no significant reduction to pollution because thermal power stations continue using their
fuel and producing their emissions while operating in standby mode. The large scale use of wind farms requires upgrading of an electricity grid, more complex grid management, and operation of additional thermal power stations to protect against power cuts in time of supply failure. These effects increase the cost of electricity supplied by the grid in addition to the capital, maintenance and operating costs of the wind farms themselves. Also, wind farms cause significant environmental damage. These severe environmental costs may be worth suffering if wind farms actually provided cheap, clean, useful electricity.
They do not.

==============================================

This was written by a scientist with good background in energy issues.
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#43
For an author with a 'good background in energy issues', his opinion piece is riddled with fallacies. Maybe his assumptions would be valid in the UK, where all his 'recognition' is.
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#44
Biker Dude Wrote:For an author with a 'good background in energy issues', his opinion piece is riddled with fallacies. Maybe his assumptions would be valid in the UK, where all his 'recognition' is.

:lol:

Maybe you can tell us what those fallacies are.

Wink1
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#45
sunsettommy Wrote:Maybe you can tell us what those fallacies are.
Easily


a scientist with good background in energy issues Wrote:Wind farms make no significant reduction to pollution because thermal power stations continue using their
fuel and producing their emissions while operating in standby mode.
This is patently false. A power generation station is his 'standby' mode can roughly be equated to an automobile idling vs under full power on the highway.

a scientist with good background in energy issues Wrote:The large scale use of wind farms requires upgrading of an electricity grid, more complex grid management, and operation of additional thermal power stations to protect against power cuts in time of supply failure. These effects increase the cost of electricity supplied by the grid in addition to the capital, maintenance and operating costs of the wind farms themselves.
The 'more complex grid management' is fundamentally required as growth happens, and cannot be tied specifically to wind generation. It has been a fact for decades that excess power is bought and sold across the US, via the grid. This negates his 'additional generation stations' point. He writes as if each local is isolated from every other. As I said, maybe it is in the UK, but not in the US. No additional cost outside of lines to the specific wind generation site exist.

a scientist with good background in energy issues Wrote:Also, wind farms cause significant environmental damage.
Do they? I have heard claims of this, but I have never seen an unbiased study.



I am not so quick to rush out and embrace something simply because I agree with what he is saying. Not as some are. :lol:

Facts are paramount. Not ideology.

That was just the opening paragraph.
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#46
Biker Dude Wrote:I am not so quick to rush out and embrace something simply because I agree with what he is saying. Not as some are. :lol:

Facts are paramount. Not ideology.

That was just the opening paragraph.

If someone had his/her livelihood dependent on one side of the issue, would that amount to 'embracing' something?
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#47
John L Wrote:If someone had his/her livelihood dependent on one side of the issue, would that amount to 'embracing' something?
If they don't bother with facts, like some, it amounts to wanton stupidity.

Get this: I work in the solar industry. My livelihood depends on it. I am in it every day. But I seem to have a more balanced view than plenty of outsiders. My dad designed power grids for a living. So maybe I understand some of it a little more than your average joe. But some of the disinformation is beyond the pale. This piece is very poorly written. Batteries in wind turbines? Come on let's at least pretend we know what we know what we are talking about. So many blow hards, that I really don't have the energy, or time, to counter all the disinformation. Just every once in a while a specially egregious case warrants attention.
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#48
Biker Dude Wrote:...Batteries in wind turbines?
C'mon BD, you can't claim batteries are not needed for wind or solar energy storage. Both are intermittent energy sources. You can use both for supplemental power - but not energy needs as they currently exist.
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#49
I can claim it because it is fact.

That is why the are hooked into the grid. When you generate just what you need, no transfer between you and the grid. When you generate more than you need, you sell the excess to the local utility company, via the grid. When you do not generate enough, you buy from the local. Of course I am talking about personal usage here. For a wind farm, of course they are on the grid! How in the hell else to you suppose they power they generate get's distributed?

This is in fact how it is done day in and day out all across America. To claim that batteries are required ignores reality and substitutes some bizzarro anti-greenie alternate reality, and satisfies a juvenile desire to find something, anything wrong with it, sans facts.

If you and tommy want to debate realities, fine. But this one ain't reality. Sorry. Only situation where this would occur is an off-the-grid scenario. And that would be such a minutely small percentage that to utilize it in the greater debate would be intellectually dishonest. And would never happen on a wind farm. Unless the sky is also pink in that reality, then maybe it happens. Shock
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#50
Since there has to be standby power to match the windmill power, it must be that for reliable NEW power, one has to build the same amount of power generation for both windmills and the standby power. If there were adequate batteries, this may not be the case. But I doubt such batteries will be found.

Now suppose that lots of people or entities had their own windmills or solar systems and the utilities are compelled by law to buy excess power when it exists and deliver power when it the power generated is not sufficient. I imagine that the complexities of sensing a large number of these excesses or debits (which could occur somewhat unpredictably) and then ramping up or down the excess capacity generators on a moments notice is formidable. Can the system become unstable with the wrong set of feedback systems? Is it even possible to micromanage such things?
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#51
Wind farms capacity worldwide is 160 GigaWatts.

Claiming that 160 GW can be stored in batteries is as ridiculous as saying that this electricity is useless.
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#52
jt Wrote:Now suppose that lots of people or entities had their own windmills or solar systems and the utilities are compelled by law to buy excess power when it exists and deliver power when it the power generated is not sufficient. I imagine that the complexities of sensing a large number of these excesses or debits (which could occur somewhat unpredictably) and then ramping up or down the excess capacity generators on a moments notice is formidable. Can the system become unstable with the wrong set of feedback systems? Is it even possible to micromanage such things?

Electricity is extremely simple to manage unless you have sudden large increase in demand.
As long as the capacity is higher than demand, there is nothing to do. If poeple don't use electricity the turbines just turn free (in this case you can say that this energy is useless, but in fact no energy is produced at this time). When poeple use electricity it creates a slow down movement in the turbines. This happens instantly and without any controling device. It's physical effect.
You can link all type of power generation toghether if their are in synchrounous phase and of identical voltage. It doesn't make any difference.
When demand exceed capacity, poeple simply don't have enough power and see the lightbulbs dimming down. If the demand far exceed capacity some fuses cut the power line to avoid overheating and other damage. The difficult part is to increase the power production fast enough with traditional power plants to avoid this.
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#53
jt Wrote:Since there has to be standby power to match the windmill power, it must be that for reliable NEW power, one has to build the same amount of power generation for both windmills and the standby power. If there were adequate batteries, this may not be the case. But I doubt such batteries will be found.

Now suppose that lots of people or entities had their own windmills or solar systems and the utilities are compelled by law to buy excess power when it exists and deliver power when it the power generated is not sufficient. I imagine that the complexities of sensing a large number of these excesses or debits (which could occur somewhat unpredictably) and then ramping up or down the excess capacity generators on a moments notice is formidable. Can the system become unstable with the wrong set of feedback systems? Is it even possible to micromanage such things?
I'm done with repeating the same thing over and over.

You all have nice thread about this.
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#54
Indianapolis wind power contract canceled
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#55
Wind Power is a Complete Disaster
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#56
Besides the unpredictability, wind turbines I have seen around here last for about two or three years, until they get locked up by a freezing rain and wrecked. With the improved batteries now available for use in hybrid cars, the intermittant nature of wind power might be smoothed out--but it would still require a lot of batteries, plus lots of DC-to-AC converters.
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#57
As I stated earlier, and Jim questioned, and is not ever mentioned on the news, is that the Achilles heel to all wind turbine generators is that of maintenance. I come from things with a different perspective, because of my military training, via Command Maintenance Management School. As a tanker(think tracked vehicles), we absolutely had to think 'preventive maintenance" 24/7, and almost nobody else only considers it, unless it is after the fact.

So let's just look at the maintenance POV here. Where are almost all of the moving parts? If you say at the top of the turbine, YOU WIN!! And the top is Waaaaaaay up there. Now, if you look at all of these wind turbines, you will not find a hinge and cotter pin, located at the base of the turbine. So, there is no lowering the turbine, via a hinge, so it can be worked on, form the ground.

Also, in order to keep all those blades turning within the tower, and generating electricity, sleeves and bearings are needed. without them, the blades will not turn. AND, while there may be sealed bearings, which are self-lubricating, these things do not last all that long. They have to be Maintained. And in order to maintain all this, it must be done at great height.

Also, these sleeves and bearings wear out, even under the best of conditions. Has anyone here ever attempted to replace those large buggers? And they are Large, trust me on this. They weight a lot. Try changing them at great height, and see how easy it is to repair the things. And that is the reason why they work for a couple-three years, and then suddenly they are abandoned. The need of repair is just too much to warrant the time/money/effort/risk/etc, involved in repairing them. Consequently, they just tend to become scarecrows, across the landscape, once the initial government subsidy has expired.

Think Maintenance!!
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#58
John, never bet against free enterprise seizing upon making simple improvements that make things such as wind turbines economical. If I was on a design team, I'd insist maintenance be addressed.

Lowering the chassis down to easy-access level is simple - but it does take away jobs from those maintenance companies that invested in cherry-pickers.

What always has bothered me is the thinking that a grid automatically accepts back-charging from upstream power production. It must be metered and contractual. If there is a power line down, and an upstream power source comes on line, it could kill repairmen trying to fix the fault. If we could just run power we generate into the grid and get paid for it, everything would work better - but since these intermittent power sources cause the grid supplier to invest extra money to over-build to cover times when the alternative energies are not producing power, they don't. If the wind machines produce most of the power, who pays the utility coal-burning plant to be in place for when they are shut down?
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#59
Fredle... Wrote:Electricity is extremely simple to manage unless you have sudden large increase in demand.
That explains why there are universities giving PhD's in power generation and distribution.

It also explains why grids became unstable and caused 2 huge blackouts in the eastern US not so long ago. In one of these cases, the initial causal incident was a power line being shorted out, because it sagged due to an overload and hit a tree. This caused an extremely widespread failure which was transmitted, domino like, over a vast area. The controls in place were not able to handle small parts of the grid going down.

Yes, Fredle..., the problem is extremely simple to manage.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#60
There is no extra coal plants being build or existing ones burning more coal to fill the gaps in renewable energies.

What you should see is that coal plants are burning less coal when windmills are turning and this create a net saving in fossile fuel.

I don't know where this blogger take his source from but what he said is physicaly impossible.

LohnL, I'v never read or heard that maintenance of wind turbines was so huge. Once in while a guy must climb upthere to check and add grease the rotor. Replace some used parts. Nothing that expensive.

jt, adding power from small units to the main grid is extremely easy, in fact there is nothing to do, just to connect it and here you are.
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What you are talking about are different problems. [/img]
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