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Euro-PIGS In Deep Trouble, And So Is The EU
#61
Why would you be surprised we're helping pay for the debts of Europe? They're ours from our post WWII perspective. We paid 90% of their bank bailouts 2 years ago didn't we?

We gave the cash to AIG,AIG gave it to their banks and we ordered AIG not to discuss it publicly.

Their wars are ours,what do you think it means to be the global ruler,you get to avoid all this "if we don't do it nobody will" responsibility?

For a guy your age I'm surprised at your naivete. I don't mean this disrespectfully,but,we're an empire and empires get their assets drained maintaining that status,blood and money.
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#62
You mean you think Ron Paul has been right on the money all along? Wink1
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#63
He's right in foreign affairs generally,IMO. I think George Washington would agree with my above statement.

We're doing the opposite of what he recommended and we're "paying" for it.
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#64
Even UK's projected deficit is projected to be worse than that of Greece. And you know what? Even after watching the fall of the SSR, and other communist countries, and now all this falling of the Collectivist Nanny States, do you actually believe enough people, in Euro-LaLa Land, are finally going to 'get it'?

My guess: not only no, but Hell No!! They will go right on attempting to get the State to solve everyone's problems. These people are absolute Idiots, and the perfect reason for finally holding politicians accountable for all of their stupid actions.

Will this happen? What do you think? After all, there is always another 'Third Way' that really should work this time. :twisted:
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#65
The UK at least has a dynamic economic background,Greece doesn't. That covers a lot of sins,it is what pulled us out of the fire in the 1980s.

BTW,I wonder how we measure up on this debt to GDP and growth ratio? We probably are not as far behind as we think.

Our large economy and dollar status shield us from being Greece possibly.
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#66
Palladin Wrote:...Their wars are ours,what do you think it means to be the global ruler,you get to avoid all this "if we don't do it nobody will" responsibility?
A bit tongue-in-cheek, but there is something to be said about the stability and uplifting that occurred when Britain was the empire where the sun never set.

I'm re-reading the Bellisarius series, and India seems well-nigh unconquerable in 633 AD, but the Union Jack did wave from flagpoles over the Great Country. From an historical perspective, it sure seems India prospered greatly and is better for the British conquering it.

I look at the weenie-state that the UK has become and wonder if there is a natural progression toward empire that occurs as nations mature, and a regression when that empire voluntarily cedes client states back their own sovereignty. The U.S. has always claimed never to ask for foreign land, except for a small plot here and there to bury our dead in service assisting the countries who ask for our help, but is that really a sound philosophy?

Perhaps most global empire enthusiasts look to a future time, when countries have petitioned the most successful nation to join in. As long as it is for both nations' greater interests, it seems like a moral positive.

Not imperial conquering by force of arms, but moral conquering by dint of mutual assistance and increasing value as the whole becomes greater than the sum of the parts.

What has always kept nations apart has been isolationism and cleaving to tradition and geography. There is a new paradigm, that old empires, like China, have been fighting tooth and nail against. The world is getting smaller and less isolated as modern technology has made neighbors understandable and the differences less noticeable and important. The telegraph, telephone, radio, television, and internet are here to stay and the world substantially closer because of them. These nations don't like it, one little bit.

Ron Paul is behind the times. What will be has never existed before, and the fears of empire are different than the reality of the voluntary embracing of converging cultures. Nothing wrong with self-interest that works synergistically.

Besides China, Japan, and other insular nations, religions have been used to keep cultures parochial and provincial. Islam is the only one I know of that makes one tenet of its existence intolerance, but the same paradigm of a shrinking world works against it.

What I see is a gradual tsunami of natural forces that will allow nations to come together in search of success. There will always be collectivists and power-seekers who apply a drag to this, but in the end, success should eventually expand globally, and a free-market with individual sovereignty should win out.
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#67
William,

I doubt the mothers of Britain's war dead soldiers agreed how important Britain's role was in 1880.

Or our mothers how important America's role is when they have that dreaded visit.

America's role on earth is not honorable anymore,nor is it worth 1 naive kid's death,it is not worth 1 kid's losing his mental stability ,his limbs or anything else.

Franklin Graham's son is now serving his 4th tour in Iraq and the state he is serving and working to extend it's power is patently and aggressively anti Christian.

I bet about right now Franklin Graham like myself is re-thinking all this propaganda we were raised with and pushed on our kids about America and her role on earth.

Having a kid of your own actually leave serving this state's global ambitions and you figure it might be your last time seeing them,that forces us to face reality.

It got real difficult for me to face the fact that he was there because of how I had taught him largely. If he had died,I probably would have died of guilt.

Securing safety for his people,that's honorable,extending the reach of this anti Christian monster the US state has become and represents is not honorable.

I will forever be thankful The Lord saw fit not to make him pay for the way I raised him with this "global ambition" patriotism. It's horsesh.it.

I respect what America is based on our constitution,that freedom is worthy of a man's full devotion unto death if need be.

However,that America died many years ago and extending the reach of the empire we run isn't worthy of the sweat off Tait's as.s or my son's or any other soldiers/sailor airman or Marine.
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#68
Wrong. That America never died. Many who should have stepped up and anchored the nation to its Constitution were gulled into allowing a handful of elitists, college professors, and left-wing media to publish a Mark Twain-like "rumors of my death have been greatly exaggerated."

Don't believe it. Just because a few libertines claim "Amerika is ours" doesn't put the "K" in America or make it so. The reason many conservatives said they voted against McCain was to teach the others on the Right a lesson, when the baddies put Obama in the Oval office.

Well, did they believe what they said or didn't they? They knew McCain would be better than Obama's intentions - but still bad enough that he would get many bad bills passed into law without the outrage that would come with Obama doing it. I guess they never believed Obama would actually change the direction of the Supreme Court or pass UnConstitutional Healthcare bills and Cap and Trade.

Don't blame the good people who do not want collectivists running the government, but acquiesced to get an amorphous reaction to it down the road somewhere. What will be will be - but the good patriots who nurture the tree of liberty are still here and will drive the country in the right direction at some point. The same people who would have stopped McCain from stupid acts are trying to stop Obama, but Obama doesn't read public opinion polls - He just makes up His own.

You say, "...extending the reach of the empire we run isn't worthy." Well I beg to differ. Our nation is what Reagan said it is: The last great hope of mankind. It used to be 13 States. It is now 50 States. Each addition was argued as evil - but wasn't. Just watch and see. We will not fail in our charge as that last great hope, and the success of our Constitutional Republic based on individual sovereignty and free enterprise will spread over the face of the earth. It will succeed because it is a good thing and will bring prosperity and the goodness and light that everyone desires.
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#69
William,

I would have agreed with you as recently as say 3 years ago.

Today,I've changed. Here's why:

1)The USA is not God's client people/nation and I really believed we largely were once. I think up until the 1960s we were a great positive force whether I liked our policies or not,since then it has been falling off and it continues.


2)The USA is no longer unique among nations simply because we have it better than Somalis do,our constitution is not observed largely,making Canada,Germany,France,Dubai or Taiwan equally free states in most cases.

Our constitution is what made us,when we ignore it we're not much different than any other group.

3)God is not limited by the fact that the USA may decline into insignificance or be dispersed,He can use any other group of folks He wants to to arrange any global arbitration He desires.

Thus,the idea Reagan presented is a false one,IMO. We're not the last,if we decline,God will provide another engine for human freedom,it's what He does.

IF we observed our constitution,I would never have had these thoughts and would still see us as special. Today,we're just a nation of wealth with little regard for personal freedom,IMO. None for our constitution.
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#70
mv Wrote:PIGS == Portugal, Italy, Greece, and Spain.

These are the countries that are most affected by the deficits right now. (Ireland is not in the best shape, but not at a risk of defaulting).

In general, South Europe has a tradition of inflating out of deficits... they did this for decades, but they cannot inflate Euro easily.

why is this?
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#71
Expand it a little and you get PIGGIES--Portugal, Italy, Greece, Germany, Ireland, England, and Spain.
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#72
Today's WSJ explains what is happening in Greece with this little editorial: The Greek Economy Explained
A warning for Europe, Albany and Washington.
They also forgot Sacramento, but since the paper is in New Yawk, I'll let them have a 'pass'. Wink1

Quote:The Greeks are giving the world a good taste of their modern politics. Periclean democracy, meet Athenian mob rule: Tens of thousands are rampaging through the capital and other large cities this week in protest against €30 billion in austerity measures needed to secure the €110 billion bailout for the bankrupt country.

The nationwide strike—led by government-employee unions, which threaten further disruptions after parliament yesterday approved the rescue package—was a timely show for Greece's prospective rescuers in Germany and at the International Monetary Fund. The medicine for Greece's deficit and debt woes (at 13% and 124.9% of GDP, respectively, and rising) won't go down easily in Athens. We continue to think the country needs to restructure its debts and adopt wholesale economic reforms.

[Image: ED-AL471A_3gree_NS_20100506183532.gif]

If you want to understand the reason, as good a source as any is the annual World Bank "Doing Business" survey for 2010. The spark for this financial crisis has been decades of overspending and cooking of the public books, but the survey reveals the underlying causes of the Greek disease.

In terms of overall ease of doing business, Greece comes in 109 out of 183 countries around the world. It is dead last among the 27 members of the European Union as well as the advanced economies in the OECD. You have to go up 30 slots to find the next worst EU performer, Italy. The U.S. ranks fourth and Singapore is first.

At 109, Greece ranks below such models of transparency and free enterprise as Egypt (106), Zambia (90), Rwanda (67) and Kazakhstan (63). A country has to work hard to do this poorly.

The Doing Business survey reveals an economy that's hostile to free enterprise and private property, primed for corruption, lacking in labor and capital mobility, stifled by powerful trade unions and unlikely to grow without deep-rooted changes. The table nearby shows Greece's rank in the 10 categories related to business operations covered by the World Bank survey.

Want to start a business in Greece? The country ranks 140 in the world because you'll need an average of 19 days and 15 steps to do it. In the U.S., it takes six days and six steps.

Filing taxes consumes 224 hours a year in Greece. In Luxembourg, the richest European Union state, it takes on average 59 hours. In the U.S., it's 187 hours.

As for protecting investors, the erstwhile cradle of Western civilization ranks 154, which has the obvious effect of scaring good money away. Most glaring are weak laws on disclosure of information to shareholders. By the bank's index, a prospective investor enjoys nearly twice the level of protection in Italy, no stand-out itself.

It's appropriate that Greece's best ranking—at 43—is for the ease of closing a business. Greeks have certainly had plenty of practice.

Ruled by neo-Marxists at the time, Greece scraped into the EU in 1981 and has since lagged behind the rest of the club. Before the advent of the euro, inflation was four times the bloc average. The political-economic default in that era was for the Athens government to devalue its currency, instantly reducing the standard of living of its citizens but avoiding pro-growth reforms.

Athens got an exemption from the EU's debt rules in order to join the single currency bloc in 2001, a year before euro notes and coins went into circulation. The country rode the wave of the stable currency, low inflation and low interest rates throughout the good times of the euro's first decade. Membership in the euro was an incentive for Greek politicians to institute fiscal discipline and carry through reforms to improve their competitiveness. They did neither, preferring the easy path of low-cost borrowing, which is how they got into their current mess.

As a euro member, Greece no longer has the option of debasing its currency, which was one of the main arguments for creating and joining the euro bloc. This means the burden of adjustment for years of borrowing is now falling on the Greek government, which is where it rightly belongs. The realization of this adjustment is what has Greek civil servants marching in the streets. The government could help ease the pain if it pushed such pro-growth reforms as a flat tax and moved Greece up in the Doing Business categories.

All of this ought to be a cautionary tale for politicians in Europe's other high-spending, slow growth states—and for those in Sacramento, Albany and Washington, D.C., too. Greece shows that the welfare state model of development, dominated by public unions, onerous regulations, high taxes and the political allocation of capital, has hit the wall. Down that road lies more Greek tragedy.


Again, do any of you believe this lesson will actually rub off onto the rest of Euro La-La land? Do you think the Obama Administration will suddenly decide that emulating European Franco-German Collectivism is a bad idea?
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#73
It was a big mistake to let Greece in the euro currency zone while they didn't meet the requirements.
The failure to meet these requirement was made even worse by them cooking the books. This was known some one or two years before the financial criss started to reach Europe.

But the other reason why it was a mistake is that Greece was the most, or should I say, the only marxist minded country in Europe. Not like in the soviet sens, which disapeared once the Berlin wall fell, but in the sens of communist worker union power and of civil servant economy.
A emtality which wouldn't fall witht the Berlin wall, nor change with the introduction of the euro.
One would thing that Greece would evoluate and become modern? Nope.

Now the euro will have to be devaluated by the amount of hidden defaut necessary to pay the Greek debt. A shame for other EU nations.

A mistake hard to pay the price for.
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#74
Actually this could be a Plus, in that it is an early wake-up call. If it were not them, then sooner or later, there would be another one stepping up to the plate.

I'm still amazed that Turkey actually wants to join this den of iniquity. In my opinion, that would be a Huge Mistake. Wink1
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#75
If they are so into the Marxist mentality....Greece....didn't we give them money, guns, equipment and food under the Marshal Plan or w/e to fight the communists in their country right after WW2?
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#76
JL, "Pusillanimous politicans" in euro la-la land understood this now.
At least the greek crisis had the advantage of waking us up (early wake up call? Not sure if that's so early, IMO it looks rather like an at-noon wake-up with an hangover), while being restricted to a relatively small country.
Hopefully we will avoid a trainwreck thanks to an alert on one defective queue wagon.

The irony of this is that it's a socialist governement (The Greek gov is socialist) which is undertaking the most anti-socialist measures ever since ww2.

JL Wrote:I'm still amazed that Turkey actually wants to join this den of iniquity. In my opinion, that would be a Huge Mistake.
Haha!
I think that Turkey can forget their EU dream now, not that the EU is not what it used to be.
For them it's still the Eden Garden the Turkish Noah's Ark is trying to reach...
One fact is that the Turkish national debt is healthier than that of many EU members, yet remains much poorer than the EU average in term of income per capita. And well, it's a Middle East muslim country. S4

Palladin Wrote:Why would you be surprised we're helping pay for the debts of Europe? They're ours from our post WWII perspective.
Do the US participate in the Greek Bail Out?
It would be interresting to know. If anyone has a link...

P Wrote:We paid 90% of their bank bailouts 2 years ago didn't we?

No, you paid only your banks bail outs.
P Wrote:We gave the cash to AIG,AIG gave it to their banks and we ordered AIG not to discuss it publicly.
No, you gave cash to AIG so that AIG could repay their creditors. European banks lost billions in the debacle, albeit less than what they would had the US not bailed out AIG, C and others.
EU banks were not the only one having their due paid by AIG. Banks around the world, had, no matter of their location. There was no preference given to european banks.

G4U Wrote:If they are so into the Marxist mentality....Greece....didn't we give them money, guns, equipment and food under the Marshal Plan or w/e to fight the communists in their country right after WW2?
Good question: You did so to stop the soviet block expansion in the Balkan, and it was effective in that respect.
Now the mentality of the poeple and of the unions is another story.
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#77
Tait,

Yes and that was one vicious civil war. Same thing we did for Turkey in the late 1940s.

Check out "Eleni" I believe,it's an autobiography of the Greek civil war and Eleni is the author's mother.

Pretty sure that was the name of it.

No humans are worse than true believing communists and this includes Islamic radicals. The communists always end up slaughtering their own people,most their victims are them.
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#78
As I recall, the Marshall plan for Europe was designed to prevent communist takeovers by and large. There were other reasons of course.

The first substantial aid [in the Marshall plan] went to Greece and Turkey in January 1947, which were seen as being on the front lines of the battle against communist expansion and were already being aided under the Truman Doctrine.

Fredle..., why do you see irony in a socialist country, 40% of whose workers are employed by the gummint, having budget problems?

Perhaps you are thinking of communist countries, for whom there was no such thing as a budget problem.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#79
jt Wrote:Fredle..., why do you see irony in a socialist country, 40% of whose workers are employed by the gummint, having budget problems?
The irony is that it's traditionaly socialist governement which pushed for higher spending, higher social benefit, more governement workers, more interventionism through aid, etc.

And now they are forced to do the opposite of what they traditionaly do everytime they are elected.

Not that the right is not spending too much too, by the way. But the left is what is supposed to increase spending and governement benefits and distribute jobs just like Santa throwing sweets at a crowd.
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#80
Fred,

AIG owed billions and billions of dollars to American and European banks who had bought the "mortgage insurance" they dreamed up.

When we bailed out AIG,they distributed the cash to the banks they owed. That included European banks and ours.

So,in that respect US taxpayers assisted bailing out your banks which helped prevent your banks from going bust. I'm sure your states also paid out a lot too,but,not 1 cent to the USA.
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