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Euro-PIGS In Deep Trouble, And So Is The EU
#41
The Geeks are being hmm fiddled Wink1

Greece loses EU voting power in blow to sovereignty

Brave Geeks fight back:

Bomb Explodes at Athens Offices of JPMorgan Chase
Sodomia delenda est

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#42
Quote:The European Union has shown its righteous wrath by stripping Greece of its vote at a crucial meeting next month, the worst humiliation ever suffered by an EU member state.

Hahahahah.

It is righteous. Isn't the EU pretty much the pinnacle of of stupidity, where the destitute welfare states can vote themselves a paycheck or grants?

Wait, that is America...
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#43
Greek Reforms.

Interesting how fast they can dictate such major changes.
Sodomia delenda est

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#44
I like the part where it will be illegal to spend more than 1500 euros in cash.
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#45
Fredledingue Wrote:It definetly costs less to reduce Greek public spendings, than bailing it out.

Not only is Greece a Socialist/Collectivist State, but it is a "Self-Professed" Socialist/Collectivist State. If the world had not had any idea as to what socialism will do TO the Political Economy, This Is It! Not only is it 'de facto', but 'de Jure" as well.

How many will learn this lesson?
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#46
mv Wrote:Brave Geeks fight back:

Bomb Explodes at Athens Offices of JPMorgan Chase

It's always some one else's fault. It's criminal that the rest of the world does not work according to Greece's Socialist/Collectivist dreams. Utopia should Never be this hard to achieve. Shock

Someone, is going to have to pay for this. And the US is the logical enemy, since the US represents unfettered Free Enterprise(think selfishness), the REAL cause of the world's problems.
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#47
The US, like Greece, went far too far however the circumstances are different.

Greece went into this through years of socialist and populist governement while the US faced a crisis in the private banking system never seen before in human memory.

The Greeks didn't face The Subprime Crisis more than anyone else, but went deeper than the US, Ireland and Spain which did.

TBS it's clear that Obama has been waiting way too late before reacting and that his reaction is pale in comparison to Geece's which is viewed by critics as not enough.
But the US hasn't even a plan of that sort.
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#48
mv Wrote:Greece loses EU voting power in blow to sovereignty
Excellent.
Greece has to know that they have no choice. Else they will be kicked off the euro zone with the conseauences you can imagine.
They should never have been alowed in in the first place. And when it was known that they cooked their book in order to get in, we should have done it already.

Of course had Greece to defaut on her debt, it would be bailed out or partly bail it out by the ECB, but Greece will be seriousely dowgraded in its position in the EU.
Jean-Claude Juncker Wrote:should it be necessary, it will most likely involve by bilateral aid by eurozone states. Proposals for an IMF bailout - backed by Britain - are "absurd"
Short of euro zone delistment, Greece could be put under monetary quarantine which prevent them from borrowing a single eurocent until they become clean.

huh Wrote:I like the part where it will be illegal to spend more than 1500 euros in cash.
I like it too. It tells a lot about the size of the black market in this country.

mv Wrote:Interesting how fast they can dictate such major changes.
IMO these are not so major changes. A few % here and there. No more.

JL Wrote:Someone, is going to have to pay for this. And the US is the logical enemy,
I don't think the US as a nation, whose everybody knows is also a victim, was the target here.
The target was the Big Banks, those who created this fiasco.

What is wrong is that banks which have survived, especialy JPM, and with the exception of CitiGroup, are not the guilty ones.
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#49
Quote:I like the part where it will be illegal to spend more than 1500 euros in cash.


Quote:I like it too. It tells a lot about the size of the black market in this country.

One of us was being sarcastic.
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#50
There is a black market economy (assuming there is one) for a reason I would imagine.....
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#51
Any time the government outlaws something people want, or raises the price (through controls or taxes) to make something unaffordable through normal channels, you get a black market.

Example: Alcohol is banned in the US, bootleg alcohol is instantly all over the place. As soon as alcohol is made legal again, the bootleg booze basically disappears.


Example: Taxes on cigarettes reach outrageous heights. Bootleg cigarettes appear on the black market.
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#52
I imagine it'll be the same with guns if they ever try to make it nearly impossible to own them while not taking away "the right".

Wait, I bet you'll find that in California...
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#53
Gunnen4u Wrote:There is a black market economy (assuming there is one) for a reason I would imagine.....

And there will be a larger one soon Wink1
Sodomia delenda est

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#54
Don't bother buying any films out of Europe at market prices, I bought them for 3 dollars, DVD quality in the local haji stand. Along with other european products....
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#55
Greece will not be kicked out of anything they will just sacrifice more of the sovereignty in exchange for a quick fix bailout. It is the same old song and dance. The EU has known for some time that the PIGS are a threat. They are the whole reason for the budget deficit limit in the Euro contract in the first place.

See the Germans and the french have long pillaged those countries for guest workers. But with a strong unified EU and one single currency you can make use of the workers while keeping them at home.

So you get them hooked on your Euro heroin and then when they can't afford to pay their dealer any more so they have to trade sexual favors. This is just the part in the story where Greece bends over or continues jonesin'.

And let this one more time be a lesson to everyone, do not get into bed with Goldman Sachs.
"And down through the centuries the robes have never failed to keep the public at a respectful distance, inspire a decent awe for the professions, and impart an air of solemnity and mystery that has been as good as money in the bank. The four faculties of theology, philosophy, medicine, and law have been the perennial seedbeds, not only of professional wisdom, but of the quackery and venality so generously exposed to public view by Plato, Rabelais, Molière, Swift, Gibbon, A. E. Housman, H. L. Mencken, and others. What took place in the Greco-Roman as in the Christian world was that fatal shift from leadership to management that marks the decline and fall of civilizations." - taken from a speech by Hugh Nibley
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#56
More words of wisdom, from another bastion of Classic Liberal thinking, The Future of Freedom Foundation. And note here, the close correlation between Greece, and what the US is starting to enter.

And also note the two partners in crime here: Socialism AND Keynesian economics Bullshit. Together, the two acting in concert, have managed to ruin more western countries, than any other combined ideologies EVER!!

Quote:Socialist Bankruptcy in Greece
by Jacob G. Hornberger

How long have European socialists been telling us how successful European welfare-statism has been? The governments in Europe’s socialist countries, they tell us, take care of their people with pensions, social security, free health care and education, and job security. And everything, they say, is just hunky dory.

But as we libertarians have been telling American socialists for decades, it’s just a matter of time before socialist systems start cracking apart, which of course has now occurred in Greece.

A system in which the government doles out money to people presupposes one important factor: that there are people in the private sector with income and wealth to take the money away from, so that government officials can turn around and give it away to others.

That fact oftentimes shocks statists. They live their lives under the pretense that the government operates just like a private business. That is, they think that the government is providing valuable goods and services that people are willingly paying for, a like a private business does. Then, they figure that when the government is doling out its fruits in the form of welfare, it’s doing it with its own hard-earned money, just as a private business might use some of its profits to give to charity.

Not so! The government gets its money by force, by simply seizing it from people in the private sector. The process is called taxation. The government finds people with money and takes a portion of it. It retains a percentage of that money to pay its own expenses — government salaries, overhead, etc. — and then doles out the rest to the recipients of welfare (or warfare) largess.

Since the government gets its money by taking it away from people who have money, it’s obvious then that the whole system depends on people in the private sector having money. If everyone in society is penniless, obviously a welfare state cannot work because the government has no one to tax in order to get its welfare money.

So, in order for a welfare state to exist, the private sector must first build up a base of income and wealth. Ironically, the best way to do that is for government to leave people free to accumulate wealth. As people begin accumulating wealth by selling goods and services to others, they tend to save a portion of their income. That savings goes into capital — tools and equipment — which then makes people more productive, which then tends to raise real incomes. Over time, the overall base of wealth begins growing exponentially.

Enter the socialists. They see this gigantic base of wealth and go nutso. They simply cannot help themselves. They just want to take, take, and take. And they’re never satisfied. They always want more and more and more.

For a while their welfare system seems to work. The socialists pluck the golden goose but the goose is still able and willing to lay eggs. But inevitably, out of their insatiable thirst for more resources, the socialists over-pluck, which causes the goose to lay less eggs. Ultimately, the goose starts getting thinner and weaker, until it finally dies.

And that’s precisely what has happened in the beloved socialist paradise of Greece. They taxed and taxed and spent and spent on their socialist schemes. In fact, not satisfied with the amount of money the taxes were bringing in, the socialists went on a borrowing spree, one similar to that which U.S. officials have embarked upon to pay for their socialist and imperialist schemes.

Of course, no one cared about all that rising debt. "No need to worry. We owe it to ourselves" the Greek Keynesian professors undoubtedly instructed their students. Financial data was even falsified in the hopes that people would never discover what was going on.

But finally, the ever-growing spending, debt, and taxes got so inordinately high that the private sector was no longer able to bear the burden of it all. The beloved Greek welfare state cracked. Bankrupt. Busted. Another socialist success story, just like the one in the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.

How are they resolving the welfare-state crisis in Greece? By taxing the private sector in other EU welfare-state countries in order to provide a government-to-government welfare dole to the Greek government.

But it’s just a matter of time before the same crisis strikes other European welfare states. Who will bail them out? Don’t count on the U.S. government. It’s following the same road as Greece.

Remember that Idiot congressman, from South Carolina, who recently stated that we were going to have to spend out way out of all this? Thank you Keynes, for this Alien Logic. Only a Collectivist, or a Statist, would ever think about considering this Idiocy.

When are we finally going to get rid of the Keynesians from the Work Bank, and other international banking groups, and bring in the Classical economists again? Answer: when everything else has been tried, and failed, that's when. And that time is almost here already.
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#57
I know this is about Euroland, and Greece, but here is another country, that is headed toward ruin. World's 'biggest welfare state'. Everybody's doing, it seems. Wink1
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#58
Could be another new member to the "PIGS" list coming soon. On borrowed time: shock deficit threatens UK recovery


The problem is this: as long as the respective members continue to be in thrall with Welfare State Collectivism, there will be one continuous crisis after another, from one or more country, for as long as they exist. And there is one way to stop it, but they either lack the will, or intelligence, to know how to implement it.

So much for intellectual Euro-superiority.






Meanwhile, Socialist Greece, which is also heavily union, is experiencing fuel shortages, because unionized government customs officials, have gone on strike.
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#59
G4U Wrote:There is a black market economy (assuming there is one) for a reason I would imagine.....
Exact... Did you find it out yourself? S2

Jacob G. Hornberger Wrote:.S. officials have embarked upon to pay for their socialist and imperialist schemes.
I don't believe in Moore's style types of conspiracy theories.
There is no socialist and imperialist schemes in the US and no debt has been risen to pay for social programs. And no cruise missle hit the Pentagon neither.
All the debts were taken to finance the Iraq and Afghan wars, then to finance the rescue of the economy after all the private banks went bankrupt one after the other, closing their counters at an alarming rate.

same Wrote:How are they resolving the welfare-state crisis in Greece? By taxing the private sector in other EU welfare-state countries in order to provide a government-to-government welfare dole to the Greek government.
No, that's precisely what we are not going to do. It sad that some poeple don't follow the news on topics they are writing about.

same Wrote:But it’s just a matter of time before the same crisis strikes other European welfare states. Who will bail them out? Don’t count on the U.S. government. It’s following the same road as Greece.
That was predicted one year ago for Austria and Hungary and even Switzerland... on the basis that some private funds were overly exposed to east european private (consumer and mortgage) debts.

:arrow:Sure it's just a matter of time.
Just like the extinction of the human kind is also not a question of "if" but "when". LOL

Well, beside these 3 enormities, it's a good article.
JL Wrote:So much for intellectual Euro-superiority.
I don't know what you are calling by that because the euro currency zone calls especialy for sober governement spendings and low deficit.

And socialist thinking is not only european. And UK and Iceland have been so, hum, anti-european until recently...

But I agree: UK should drop ENGlish SOCialism and join the Euro. When they will get their finance in order of course.

JL Wrote:Meanwhile, Socialist Greece, which is also heavily union, is experiencing fuel shortages, because unionized government customs officials, have gone on strike.

That won't last. The unionist/communists are going to make their show and dance. But they won't be able to do much more. Their action will hurt the economy and the daily life of normal poeple.
Like islamoterrorists in Iraq and Afghanistan, these communists will only get more hated by the population.
The Greek population is already backing the measures, they will now hate the governement worker unions. Which is a remarkable developement because poeple tend to hate the institution and the central banks more than leftists. Not this time.

Any beside Greece, developed nation debts are staggering, just beyond what normal poeple can realize, infinity:
G7 nations owe a combined 30.375 trillion

AFP Wrote:The United States' federal debt soared to a whopping 12.349 trillion dollars last month.

Japan's debt, meanwhile, was estimated at 864.5 trillion yen (9.684 trillion US dollars) in September 2009.

Italy's debt reached 1.7839 trillion euros (2.428 trillion US dollars) in November 2009.

Germany's combined federal and state debt was 1.5795 trillion euros (2.150 trillion US dollars) at the end of 2008, according to the last published data.

France owed 1.4574 trillion euros (1.991 trillion US dollars) as of the third quarter of 2009.

Britain owed 796.9 billion pounds (1.245 trillion US dollars) as of March 2009.

Finally, Canada's federal debt is forecast to hit 565 billion Canadian dollars (528 billion US) by March 2010.
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#60
IBD seems to think, like we do here. Greece is in not the only ones in trouble over it's failure. In other words, this is just the tip of the iceberg.

And why are we helping pay for this 'fix'? Aren't we in horrible shape as well? Am I missing something, or is someone in "la-La" land?

Quote:Virtually every country in the EU spends more than it takes in and has made long-term fiscal promises to an aging work force that it can't keep. A little over a year ago, economist Jagadeesh Gokhale, writing for the National Center for Policy Analysis, produced a pithy — and scary — summation of the fiscal challenges faced by Europe. Don't read it if you have trouble sleeping.

"The average EU country," he concluded, "would need to have more than four times (434%) its current annual gross domestic product in the bank today, earning interest at the government's borrowing rate, in order to fund current policies indefinitely."

In other words, Europe would have to have the equivalent of roughly $60 trillion in the bank today to fund its very general welfare benefits in the future. Of course, it doesn't.



Today, Greece is only the tip of a very large iceberg. Portugal, Spain, Italy and Ireland together owe $3.9 trillion in short- and medium-term debts, an amount larger than their combined GDP, estimated last year at $3.3 trillion.

They'll soon have to make massive, unpopular cuts in long-cherished welfare programs or go bust. Even Britain's in the same boat.

They must act now, because the population in Europe is getting old fast. In the future, nations will have neither the will, the wealth nor the productivity to make the necessary adjustments. They'll be bankrupt, living hand-to-mouth.

There's no schadenfreude in this for us, since the U.S. is moving down the same path. Today, our deficit is close to 11% of GDP, and in just 10 years our total debt-to-GDP ratio will hit an economy-killing 90%. We have more than $107 trillion in unfunded liabilities.

As we've observed before, it seems to be a chronic condition of Western democracies that pusillanimous politicians promise far more than they can deliver — and then, almost in unison, blame capitalism (the only real wealth creator) for their ills.

Well, those who do so might want to read the recent report from the Bank for International Settlements — the central bankers' international bank. In it, the global bankers warn of a coming threat to global stability due to the West's fiscal imbalances.

"Our projections of public debt ratios lead us to conclude that the path pursued by fiscal authorities in a number of industrial countries is unsustainable," the report says. It puts the blame not on capitalism, not on Wall Street bankers, but "fiscal authorities" — a polite way of saying "politicians."

Whether it's Japan, the U.S. or Western Europe, nations today face a surprisingly similar litany of problems: too much spending, too much welfare, too many taxes, too many regulations. These are the policies that have pushed the most economically successful nations in world history to the brink of financial ruin.

The time to change them is now — before we all go over the edge.

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