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Who cares about North Korea?
#1
Last year when I went to North Korea, one of the people who I was with, who had worked with Korean refugees, told me that there was a grand total of something like 39 refugees who had made it to the United States.  That figure made me wonder a little bit, and here I am finding more evidence that the US's North Korean policy is not the result of any kind of careful planning, but rather just an unwillingness to lift a finger.  I of course don't know the full context of US's policies towards NK, and they do have Soeul on a 2-hour fuse, so there is plenty of reason for caution on anything the US does.  Still though, I suspect the US could do a lot more than it's doing without raising any flak from North Korea - perhaps raise the number of refugees in the US a few hundred times or just simple things like that.  The article below gives some more suggestions.
Quote:With a little rejiggering, North Koreans can listen to foreign news broadcasts...But there are few broadcasts that North Koreans can hope to intercept. It was once assumed that South Korea would do the best job broadcasting news to its northern neighbor. And that was true until the late 1990s, when, as part of its “sunshine policy,” South Korea deliberately made these broadcasts “nonprovocative.” There are only three other stations that target North Korea. But their airtime is short, largely due to a shortage of funds. Radio Free Asia and Voice of America each broadcast for roughly four hours per day, and Free North Korea (FNK), a small, South Korea-based station staffed by North Korean defectors, broadcasts for just one hour per day.

A dramatic increase in funding for broadcasts by Voice of America is necessary. It is also important to support the defectors’ groups that do similar broadcasting themselves. These groups are regularly silenced by South Korean authorities, and they have to do everything on a shoestring. A journalist at the FNK gets paid the equivalent of a janitor’s salary in Seoul. Even a small amount of money—less than U.S. military forces in Seoul spend on coffee—could expand their airtime greatly. With an annual budget of just $1 million, a refugee-staffed station could be on air for four hours a day, 365 days a year.

...Today, younger North Korean defectors are being admitted to South Korean colleges through simplified examinations (they have no chance of passing the standard tests), but a bachelor’s degree means little in modern South Korea. Defectors cannot afford the tuition for a postgraduate degree, which is the only path to a professional career. Thus, postgraduate scholarships and internship programs will be critical to their success. Without outside help, it is unlikely that a vocal and influential group of defectors will emerge. Seoul won’t fund these programs, so it will be up to foreign goverments and nongovernmental organizations to do so. Fortunately, these kinds of initiatives are cheap, easy to enact, and perfectly compatible with the views of almost every U.S. politician, from right to left.

I know that there's been trouble in enacting a voice of America - type thing in the Middle East, because of language difficulties and other things.  But here is a network that's ready to go, if the US were just willing to push the button.  Like I said, there are good reasons for caution here, but I have the feeling that they're not the primary drivers of US policy.  Do my impressions jive with anyone else's experiences?
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#2
b5d Wrote:Still though, I suspect the US could do a lot more than it's doing without raising any flak from North Korea - perhaps raise the number of refugees in the US a few hundred times or just simple things like that. The article below gives some more suggestions.

Yes, there is. first off, we could overlook their nearly 100% history of breaking their word on each and every agreement they make with us. Then we could follow up, by kissing their "backside" on a daily basis. And lastly, the ROK can remove the DMZ, so their UIs* can infiltrate south, without worry of being caught. North Korea's "credit rating" is virtually zero, and there are still those, who believe we are not giving enough for them. Amazing!

Of course, it's not the fault of the leadership, is it?

* UI- Unidentified Individual. The name the military uses for N Korean spies, who infiltrate south, into the ROK area, in order to spy, commit sabatage, or assassinations.
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#3
John L Wrote:Then we could follow up, by kissing their "backside" on a daily basis.
What exactly are you suggesting? Can you be more specific?
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#4
b5d Wrote:
John L Wrote:Then we could follow up, by kissing their "backside" on a daily basis.
What exactly are you suggesting? Can you be more specific?

Kissing their "backside"= Kissing their "ass"

Specific enough?
"Battle is an orgy of disorder"

George S. Patton, Jr.
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#5
Um. I read that as "kicking," not "kissing." Need to get my eyes checked. Shock Anyway, as I suspect that post was tongue in cheek, the question still stands.
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#6
we could isolate them from outside influences and then sanction the leaders to death until the people get fed up with it and kill the commie sycophants in charge.
[Image: 760.png]
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#7
And, is that any different from now? They are already basically sealed airtight, of their own volition, and I don't think too many people would think Kim Jong Il would live a cozy life if he didn't have his people around him 24/7.
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#8
b5d Wrote:Does the United States care about North Korea?

Nope. At a time when North Korea is tinkering with missile technology intended to reach the Continental U.S. (if at first ... or second ... or third you don't succeed, try, try, try again), President Jughead has decided that it's a prudent time to cut missile defense. Does that give you an idea of the level of 'seriousness' or 'care' if you prefer that Obama takes in NK ... or Iran ... or his comrade pals in Russia? If North Korea ever managed to hit us (even if it only killed a few hundred people or God Forbid wrecked some Salmon habitat in or mucked up the coast line) does anyone have any doubt that the result would be absolute total annihilation of North Korea? Politics would demand it (you just can't go screwing around with Salmon these days!), and the Chinese would acquiesce because it would actually result in a reunification strategy that they could live with. One that permanently pulls South Korea down into the mud as it struggles with it's new smoldering burden to the North and re-establishes the U.S. as the great Satan that goes about nuking Asian nations.

The rest of your article had the same bland blame America for all that's wrong with the world flavor that getting more than a little sour. Our fault for not building radio stations ... it's our fault for not transforming peasants to PhDs ... it's our fault for not taking in more people when our country is already busting at the seams with immigrants. Is there some point when it might be at least a tiny bit Europe's fault ... or maybe just a teensy bit China ... ? ...

Naaaaa .... what the heck and I thinking?
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#9
b5d Wrote:And, is that any different from now? They are already basically sealed airtight, of their own volition, and I don't think too many people would think Kim Jong Il would live a cozy life if he didn't have his people around him 24/7.

Actually, China has been subsidizing NKorea for some time, and has recently increased their subsidy. The Chinese start what companies they can in NKorea and use their profits to buy raw materials they can ship outside the country, since they cannot ship the money they make outside of NKorea. The Chinese are afraid that a collapse of government in NKorea will send too many refugees into China. Also, the Chinese are happy to keep NKorea as a client state which annoys the US and prevents the expansion of SKorea.

So, NKorea is not "sealed tight".

Details Here
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#10
mr_yak Wrote:Nope. At a time when North Korea is tinkering with missile technology intended to reach the Continental U.S. (if at first ... or second ... or third you don't succeed, try, try, try again), President Jughead has decided that it's a prudent time to cut missile defense.
This has been the case since long before Obama was in office. Bush had 8 years to do this sort of thing, if he wanted to.

Quote:The rest of your article had the same bland blame America for all that's wrong with the world flavor that getting more than a little sour. Our fault for not building radio stations ... it's our fault for not transforming peasants to PhDs ... it's our fault for not taking in more people when our country is already busting at the seams with immigrants. Is there some point when it might be at least a tiny bit Europe's fault ... or maybe just a teensy bit China ... ? ...
If North Korea helps whatever random autocracy build their nuclear program, it's probably going to be the US that pays when those things end up in the hands of terrorists. It simply isn't China and Europe's problem. This sort of bickering over the bill - especially when, as noted above, the amounts are so small - is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about.

jt Wrote:Actually, China has been subsidizing NKorea for some time, and has recently increased their subsidy. The Chinese start what companies they can in NKorea and use their profits to buy raw materials they can ship outside the country, since they cannot ship the money they make outside of NKorea. The Chinese are afraid that a collapse of government in NKorea will send too many refugees into China. Also, the Chinese are happy to keep NKorea as a client state which annoys the US and prevents the expansion of SKorea.

So, NKorea is not "sealed tight".
Alright, well then I agree that these efforts to 'internationalize' them aren't helping. So the question is, how do you get China to agree to stop this? My view is that, since they are not the primary enemy, you have to consider using carrots as well as sticks. (After China, South Korea will presumably follow as well.)

This is the complicated end of the question. Above I started with the simple part.
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#11
Why should we care about North Korea?

Let's pretend for just a second that he gets the needed missile technology. The minute he does, the fun ends for him.

Until then let the people starve until they figure out they need to revolt.
"And down through the centuries the robes have never failed to keep the public at a respectful distance, inspire a decent awe for the professions, and impart an air of solemnity and mystery that has been as good as money in the bank. The four faculties of theology, philosophy, medicine, and law have been the perennial seedbeds, not only of professional wisdom, but of the quackery and venality so generously exposed to public view by Plato, Rabelais, Molière, Swift, Gibbon, A. E. Housman, H. L. Mencken, and others. What took place in the Greco-Roman as in the Christian world was that fatal shift from leadership to management that marks the decline and fall of civilizations." - taken from a speech by Hugh Nibley
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#12
b5d Wrote:Um. I read that as "kicking," not "kissing." Need to get my eyes checked. Shock Anyway, as I suspect that post was tongue in cheek, the question still stands.

Absolutely not. The N Koreans have broken every agreement we have entered with them. We agree to something, in which they will recirocate, by sending them money, goods, food, etc, etc. They go through the motions, up front, and suddenly change back. And the one common denominator is that they have received the goods first.

The point is that you CANNOT depend on a Collectivist dictatorship to keep it's word on practically anything. After all, the main thesis is that "The End Is Justified By the Means".
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#13
b5d Wrote:Alright, well then I agree that these efforts to 'internationalize' them aren't helping. So the question is, how do you get China to agree to stop this? My view is that, since they are not the primary enemy, you have to consider using carrots as well as sticks. (After China, South Korea will presumably follow as well.)

This is the complicated end of the question. Above I started with the simple part.

How many times should we use carrots, only to have the donkey(pun intended here) refuse to move further? How many times do we let the donkey kick us in the teeth, before one finally says ENOUGH?

You are not married yet, are you? Well when you do, and you have your first little rug rat, try the same thing on him/her, and see if you are doing any good, by giving in all the time. Try it and see if you can change his/her habits. And see how wonderful your life is, by appeasing that child all the time.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#14
b5d Wrote:
mr_yak Wrote:Nope. At a time when North Korea is tinkering with missile technology intended to reach the Continental U.S. (if at first ... or second ... or third you don't succeed, try, try, try again), President Jughead has decided that it's a prudent time to cut missile defense.
This has been the case since long before Obama was in office. Bush had 8 years to do this sort of thing, if he wanted to.

Does not compute ... Bush funded missile defense ... pushed missile defense to the dismay of liberals and Russians etc ... (What a joke BTW that BHO offered it up as a 'gift' to Putin-Medvedev ... who want's a gift that everyone knows is going into the trash anyway?) Obama is quietly killing it. You're confusing a viable counter measure with the bribe and wink game that goes back to the Clinton Administration. Besides, when the time comes it won't be the U.S. that does the deed ... it will be Japan (is there really anyone stupid or naive enough to believe that Japan doesn't have nuke capability?) with U.S. cover ... probably won't occur for at least another four years though ... as it's becoming increasingly apparent that President Jughead has a glaring testicular deficiency ... unless NK takes Japan on directly to take advantage of the current void in American leadership. It would be a pretty crazy thing to do ... but probably in character for them.

b5d Wrote:If North Korea helps whatever random autocracy build their nuclear program, it's probably going to be the US that pays when those things end up in the hands of terrorists. It simply isn't China and Europe's problem. This sort of bickering over the bill - especially when, as noted above, the amounts are so small - is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about.

Again, since when was it ever "China and Europe's problem"?? Europe is on the sidelines and China is actively supporting the madness. We'll 'pay' if we p*ss away your "small amount" ... and we'll 'pay' if we don't p*ss away your "small amount" ... but I'll disagree with you that it will be the U.S. exclusively that 'pays'. The real casualty here is any notion of NPT other than the roll over on your belly lip service that Obama is paying it these days. Once we enter the age of Plebeian Nukes all bets are off ... hell we've been there for a while but nobody is really ready to admit it.

b5d,

You really sound like you're expecting some kind of U.S. foreign policy leadership on an Executive and Congressional level. Sorry, it's not gonna happen for a while. Witness the international apology tour over the last week or so. Hegemony is no longer part of the plan. Now if the EU asked Obama to expand VOA, dump some of our newly minted Geithner bucks into Korean higher ed, bring in boatloads of refugees ... that might fly ... if I were as passionate about this issue as you, that would be the tactic I'd use ... but I really wouldn't hold my breath either way.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#15
John L Wrote:
b5d Wrote:Still though, I suspect the US could do a lot more than it's doing without raising any flak from North Korea - perhaps raise the number of refugees in the US a few hundred times or just simple things like that. The article below gives some more suggestions.

Yes, there is. first off, we could overlook their nearly 100% history of breaking their word on each and every agreement they make with us. Then we could follow up, by kissing their "backside" on a daily basis. And lastly, the ROK can remove the DMZ, so their UIs* can infiltrate south, without worry of being caught. North Korea's "credit rating" is virtually zero, and there are still those, who believe we are not giving enough for them. Amazing!

Of course, it's not the fault of the leadership, is it?

* UI- Unidentified Individual. The name the military uses for N Korean spies, who infiltrate south, into the ROK area, in order to spy, commit sabatage, or assassinations.
There are people in this world who are a lot more paranoid than North Koreans. If NK feels threatened by America, they might have a point. John's statement, however, is plain stupid.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#16
quadrat Wrote:There are people in this world who are a lot more paranoid than North Koreans. If NK feels threatened by America, they might have a point. John's statement, however, is plain stupid.

Not really Dumkauf: stupid only to the twisted perceptions of certain individuals, not having the sharpest pencil in the drawer. :lol:
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#17
David Byrne Wrote:... same as it ever was ... same as it ever was ... SAME - AS -IT -EV -ER -WAS ...
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#18
North Korea holds several separate traits in the intelligence community. The CIA public websites will give the standard info of a weak country ruled by a despot who has continually broken his word to the detriment of his people. They will give the average number of calories available and the long-held fear of neighbors that refuses imports and exports.

The other story is of a walled-off segment of the government that has free-rein for all sorts of blue-sky adventurism. The reason the DMZ is so important to the south is to help prevent the infiltration of highly skilled soldiers trained up to the level of our own SEALS. Man for man, this group has been said to be twice as tall and four times as strong as the average North or South Korean. I remember an off-the-cuff comment years ago, dating all the way back to the Pueblo incident, that always stuck with me, about our concern for these infiltrators. I've looked for years for corroborating stories, but they are such a closely-guarded issue that the definition of the ground game there is rarely spelled out. I think they are part of the reason that no one has done a good job with counter-espionage against NK. Humint trumps technical.
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#19
WmLambert Wrote:... The CIA public websites will give the standard info of a weak country ruled by a despot who has continually broken his word to the detriment of his people. , .

And, and -

""who was just "elected" to another term."
I know you think you understand what you thought I said,
but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant!
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#20
Define the term "elected."
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