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The EU Constitution Is In The Toilet!
#1
Alright, I have stated numerous times in the past that the EU was doomed to disaster. Here is the latest definitive indication that it is going to come to fruition. If the French cannot approve it, then what are it's real chances? And who really cares?

Anyway, good riddance to bad rubbish!
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French in disarray as they admit EU treaty vote is lost

"THE leader of France’s ruling party has privately admitted that Sunday’s referendum on the European constitution will result in a “no” vote, throwing Europe into turmoil.

“The thing is lost,” Nicolas Sarkozy told French ministers during an ill-tempered meeting. “It will be a little ‘no’ or a big ‘no’,” he was quoted as telling Jean-Pierre Raffarin, the Prime Minister, whom he accused of leading a feeble campaign."
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#2
I give you, the "Urine-Pee'in" Constitution:

[Image: b5732527.jpg]

Stratfor had a great article concerning the EU.

Things like the EU, built on markets and economies, is having a constitution fit to it rather then the other way around, so now the constitution is so complicated that most people do not understand it. Add the nationalism of European nations, and its a mess.

At least thats what I gathered from the article itself.

At any rate, its doomed.

But - alot of the No vote campaign was driven by the hard left socialists as well as others; would people push out Chirac after this failure of his and vote the socialists in? The current gov't would be in dissarray after this. After all, if the majority do not want the EU, I doubt they would want a pro-EU brand of leadership?

Am I stretching that too far?
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#3
Anything and all things are possible here. Just keep your beer cold and your popcorn fresh. [Image: popcorn.gif]
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#4
Quote:Stratfor had a great article concerning the EU.

Things like the EU, built on markets and economies, is having a constitution fit to it rather then the other way around, so now the constitution is so complicated that most people do not understand it. Add the nationalism of European nations, and its a mess.

At least thats what I gathered from the article itself.

Their point was a good one, but i think they missed another one:

The diff between the US constitution (or the old French one, and others) and the EU proposal is that in most cases the constitution was designed to reflect existing desires of an existing state. In the EU case, it attempts to reflect the desired (by the elite) desires of a non-existing state. And when the populace finally learned what they are supposed to desire (like open migration from E. Europe and Turkey).. they got worried.

Another important point: French are actually going to be screwed up worse by rejecting the constitution. Rejection does not kill the EU (yet), it merely sets it back into the Nice agreement. And under the Nice agreement smaller countries have much more voting power.

What this means is that if French reject, French+German core are a minority. After Schroeder fall (this year, or next year), there is no core, and both France and Germany are minorities; so both will look -- separately -- for partners.

Sounds like we've been through this before?


The person who stands to gain most from a French No is, incidentally, Tony Blair. This way he would not have to lose his credibility over a losing proposiiton (that is, of course, if he lasts till next year).
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#5
Quote:Am I stretching that too far?
Yes, you are. The US military comes to the risque :lol: :lol:
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#6
Some People simply don't know when to quit and retool. Do you think that this will be the eventual end of the Poodle?
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#7
Gunnen4u Wrote:But - alot of the No vote campaign was driven by the hard left socialists as well as others; would people push out Chirac after this failure of his and vote the socialists in? The current gov't would be in dissarray after this. After all, if the majority do not want the EU, I doubt they would want a pro-EU brand of leadership?

Am I stretching that too far?

John L Wrote:Some People simply don't know when to quit and retool. Do you think that this will be the eventual end of the Poodle?

Well, my hunch may be right. If Chirac keeps up his mantra to a French populace set on a "Non" vote, people are just going to vote him out, and one of the socialists who support the no vote may get in. Chirac, in France, is right of center. You think he is bad, just wait till a French lefty gets in power.
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#8
SNK,

If you are reading this: what are the Dutch opinion polls saying?
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#9
mv Wrote:SNK,

If you are reading this: what are the Dutch opinion polls saying?

For the first time in weeks the proponents are gaining a little bit more support, but the opponents still have a sound majority. It is probably due to the pro-campaign that finally kicked in. It focuses on non-issues and is very vague, but it seems to work.

Some other news is that certain leaders are talking about repeating the refendum if the people of a nation decide to blow up the document. This commentary comments on this situation in nice way:
Quote:Juncker's Clunker
May 27, 2005

Some politicians still don't get it. Speaking to the Belgian newspaper Le Soir, Luxembourg Prime Minister Jean-Claude Juncker had this to say regarding the expected rejection of the proposed European constitution by the French and the Dutch in coming referendums: "If at the end of this process we don't manage to solve the problems, the countries that have said no will have to ask themselves the question again."

One could read this comment as an early concession speech -- or as a virtual guarantee of defeat. Mr. Juncker, about to end his term in the EU's rotating presidency, doesn't seem to understand that this patronizing attitude -- Don't worry; you poor, ignorant little citizens will get it right if we just give you enough chances -- is a large part of the reason the French and Dutch are leery of giving Brussels any more power than it's already granted itself. This sort of condescension certainly hasn't won Brussels any votes in the imminent referendums.

Constitution supporters, particularly in France, have tried unsuccessfully to swing opinion polls in their favor by presenting the referendum as a one-shot deal that must be taken seriously rather than used to vent frustration with domestic policies. So perhaps Mr. Juncker's statement is meant to have a reverse psychological effect: That a "no" vote doesn't matter because the question will be asked until the answer is "yes."

If that's the case, then why bother with having another referendum -- or having any referendums at all? Why go through this democratic charade if the will of the people only counts when it matches the will of the ruling class?

All the more reason for pending referendums to proceed no matter what the French and the Dutch say. If renegotiating the current treaty is out of the question -- as Mr. Juncker also indicated in the Le Soir story -- then putting it to a vote in euroskeptic places like Britain only after rebellious countries have been brought to heel would hardly be an exercise of democracy. Why would people inclined to vote "no" even bother, if the outcome is bound to be "yes" one way or another, sooner or later, like Soviet-era "elections"?

What's more, all EU member states could benefit from a healthy discussion of the European "project." The debates seen in France and the Netherlands have been far from ideal, characterized as they have been by bouts of demagoguery on both sides of the issue. But no one said democracy was always decorous or neat. An imperfect debate is far preferable to none at all.

Politicians are not infallible; if they always knew what was best for their constituents, we wouldn't need elections or referendums at all. It follows from this that, when the people are asked their opinion, their answer should stand. A "yes" in France on Sunday would rightly be considered definitive; a "no" would deserve the same respect.

The Constitution won't even survive the France referendum, it will get derailed before it arrives in the Netherlands. More good news: France’s Chirac, Raffarin Drop on Eve of EU Vote.
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#10
I never quite understood what certain European politicians were thinking about by attempting to make a superstate out of Europe. And to think that the rest of the world is downsizing, or at least trending that way.

And they think that they are doing the right thing by gathering mass? Totally illogical, from my POV.

But who am I to make such claims. I'm just part of the "joe sixpack" crowd. Wink1
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#11
Joe Sixpack?

I hope that anal wart isn't here (you may remember him from the other battleground John).

At any rate: I do not know what they were thinking either. Just trying to get over European nationalism between the various states is almost impossible. While they look like they are in bed with each other, the German people and the French people actually hate each others guts. Now force them to live together.
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#12
Well, I can remember during the 60s working in the Top Hat NCO Club at Baumholder, and the German employees were making fun at the French who were dancing with each other on the dance floor. The Germans still think that the French are nothing but a bunch of women.
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#13
Well, from the German exchange students who visited earlier this year, they told us a story:

Some of them went to France for vacation one year and one of the chief attractions on the trip was Paris.

So, upon getting there, they stopped at a small coffee shop or w/e and decided to plan the trip through Paris.

Some of the other people in the cafe, hearing them [the Germans] speak German and use broken French to order, turned the atmosphere from nice to uncomfortable and the person taking their order did so with reluctance. After they left, they made a comment about seeing the Arch de Triumph, or whatever the hell it is and marcing under it....again.

Apparently, they don't like each other. If the Germans still think the French are a bunch of women, do you think they are far off? How many times has the German beaten down the Frenchman?

If you ask me, telling these two peoples to live nicely with each other will only turn out to be a mess, add in the fact that they both fear the Anglo-Saxons and its a air of conflict, suspicion and nationalism within the supposed "EU State".
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#14
John L Wrote:Well, I can remember during the 60s working in the Top Hat NCO Club at Baumholder, and the German employees were making fun at the French who were dancing with each other on the dance floor. The Germans still think that the French are nothing but a bunch of women.

Heh-heh.

The leader of the Free Democrats in Germany (and likely next FM) is gay.
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#15
Is he effeminine (or w/e the word is)?
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#16
The angst between Germany and France may be egged on by insults and disdain, but the underlying problems are historic. Both sides remember preeminence in the world and would like to reclaim the good old days.

Neither side will accomplish such a forlorn goal.
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#17
French post-vote commentary:

Quote:44% of french voters support the EU constitution and they can not be ignored.
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#18
mv Wrote:French post-vote commentary:

Quote:44% of french voters support the EU constitution and they can not be ignored.

I guess that means that the other 56% can? Does that sound like something you would read or hear from the MSM?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#19
But of course. The other 56% is a small uneducated minority. Wink1
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#20
Just like the 52% who voted for Bush? Wink1 :lol:
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