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The EU Constitution Is In The Toilet!
#61
Aftershocks:

Stratfor Wrote:French President Jacques Chirac's approval rating fell eight points to 24 percent this month, according to a survey of 1,000 French people conducted from May 30-31 for Le Figaro Magazine. No margin of error was given. Chirac's rating is the lowest since TNS-Sofres started surveying voters in 1979 under President Valery Giscard d'Estaing.

Actually, 24% is not that bad. Shroeder is lower. Wink1

Quote:British Foreign Minister Jack Straw is expected to suspend the British referendum on the European Union constitution in a speech to Parliament on June 6, the British Broadcasting Corp. reported June 2.

Why are we not surprised?

Blair is emerging as the only Western European leader with some credibility...
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#62
John L Wrote:Good Point! However, who knows at this point. Stay tuned.

Thanks John, I'm reading the forum even being enough busy on my work place...

mv Wrote:Which would lead to the GDL concept I've previously suggested..
mv, your are maniac about GDL. It's PAST. If you can read polish:

http://www.poloniainfo.se/forum/temat.ph...temat=4522

Latvia need russian customers a-la Chodorkovsky, cause their "succeses" are mostly succeses in money laundering:
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/stories/20...7/047.html


ag Wrote:Right now they all have something in common: the fear (real or imagined) of Russia.

They are so scared, Latvia even demand some russian territories. :?
They became silent only when Putin publicly answered:"...ot mertvogo osla ushi, a nie Pytalovskiy rayon..." They are members of NATO. It's enough...
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#63
And the hits just a'keep on'a comin'on. S2

http://reuters.myway.com/article/2005060...RO-DC.html
Quote:Italy minister says should study leaving euro-paper
Email this Story

Jun 3, 3:21 AM (ET)

Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi looks on during the Republic day parade in central Rome...
Full Image

ROME (Reuters) - Italy should consider leaving the single currency and reintroducing the lira, Welfare Minister Roberto Maroni said in a newspaper interview on Friday.

Maroni, a member of the euro-skeptical Northern League party, told the Repubblica daily Italy should hold a referendum to decide whether to return to the lira, at least temporarily.

He also said European Central Bank President Jean-Claude Trichet was one of those chiefly responsible for the "disaster of the euro."

The euro "has proved inadequate in the face of the economic slowdown, the loss of competitiveness and the job crisis," Maroni said.

In this situation, the answer is to give the government greater power to defend national industry from foreign competition and "to give control over the exchange rate back to the government."

Maroni is a front-line government minister but his views are not believed to be shared by those with far greater sway over economic policy, such as Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi or Economy Minister Domenico Siniscalco.

Maroni cited Britain as a virtuous example of a country whose economy "grows and develops, maintaining control over its currency."

When it was put to Maroni that Trichet on Thursday dismissed the idea that monetary union could break up, the minister replied: "Sure, he is one of those chiefly responsible for the disaster of the euro."

He added Trichet should try to convince hard-pressed small Italian businessmen that the euro was a success.

Maroni also dismissed the idea that Italy's struggling economy could face an Argentina-style financial disaster if it abandoned the single currency.

"We're already heading toward Argentina, that's why we have to change direction," he said.

Three years ago Argentina defaulted on its public debt.

What's that old saw about farm fowl coming home to roost? :lol:
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#64
More bad news for the Reich, Wind of euroscepticism sweeps Scandinavia after French, Dutch polls.

Quote:mv, your are maniac about GDL

:oops: :?:

No, I'm looking one move ahead. After EU, some kind of regional blocking will emerge, and a Eastern European block is high prob. GDL is a good preliminary name for it.

There some obvious parallels between now and early 17th century, with Putin perhaps corresponding to Tsar Boris, and the Big Mess coming next. If the events rerun, we should expect to see a few False Dimitris (resurgent communists?), then Poles (Ukranians?) occupying Moscow, then Swedes (Finns?) occupying St. Petersburg, and two charismatic leaders (Zhirinovsky and Limonov?) leading the war of national liberation.

===

Seabird,

Thanks for the story. About a week ago, Stratfor wrote that Italy is the weakest link for the Euro...I still don't fully understand why, but your story seems to confirm it.
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#65
mv Wrote:Seabird,

Thanks for the story. About a week ago, Stratfor wrote that Italy is the weakest link for the Euro...I still don't fully understand why, but your story seems to confirm it.

I suspect its because Berlusconi, while being pro-Euro (for now), is also pro-US. More so at least than the rest of Ye Olde Europe. It would seem logical that Italy would be the first (next to GB) to bail from the EU and align herself with us.

With the recent talk of a US redeploy throughout Eastern Europe, it will be interesting to see if Italy tries a little harder to accommodate our interests now. It may not be necessary as Italy has more strategic value than Germany or GB even.
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#66
MV, don't worry Schroeder-pasha ibn bey wouldn't watch the mess indifferently... But I like your joke about Swedish occupants. :?
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#67
Quote:(..)Our Constitution … is called a democracy because power is in the hands not of a minority but of the greatest number.(..)

You only have to read this very first line of the Constitution to know its very bad, a real democracy eh?
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#68
SNK Wrote:
Quote:(..)Our Constitution … is called a democracy because power is in the hands not of a minority but of the greatest number.(..)

You only have to read this very first line of the Constitution to know its very bad, a real democracy eh?

I'm a little confused about the point you are making. We make no bones about our existence as a representative republic. Use of the term "democracy" to describe ourselves has always been in error. I suspect most just use it as a sort of shorthand definition.

Anyway, more speculation about the collapse and/or dissolution of the euro from The Times UK:
Quote:June 04, 2005

EU leaders forced to calm jitters over euro
By Anthony Browne, Brussels Correspondent

THE political crisis that has engulfed the European Union since France and the Netherlands rejected its proposed constitution yesterday threatened to spill over and damage the euro.

Embattled EU financial leaders spent the day defending the currency, dismissing talk of its break-up as “absurd”. One senior EU official said: “Euro notes and coins are for ever, like the euro.”

In a symptom of the seriousness of the creeping doubts, Roberto Maroni, the Italian Welfare Minister, had suggested in an interview with La Repubblica that a referendum should be held on bringing back the lira. The euro had “proved inadequate in the face of the economic slowdown, the loss of competitiveness and the job crisis”, he said.

“Wouldn’t it be better perhaps to return, temporarily at least, to a system of dual circulation of the euro and lira?” He cited Britain as an example of a nation “growing and developing by holding on to its own currency”.

Although the Italian Government quickly distanced itself from Signor Maroni’s views, his comments rattled the currency markets. The euro slumped from about $1.2290 to $1.2231 on his remarks. On Wednesday, the euro fell by about 1.40 cents against the dollar as the Dutch voted on the EU constitution and markets reacted to uncertainties created by France’s “no” vote. That brought the single European currency to an eight-month low of $1.2202.

An economic adviser to José Manuel Barroso, the President of the Commission, gave warning that the situation was “dangerous” and that some countries would want to leave the currency. For the first time financial markets are speculating that the euro may collapse, by offering variable long-term interest rates on government debt in different eurozone countries. However, Joaquín Almunia, the European Monetary Affairs Commissioner, said: “The euro forms part of our landscape. I think nobody is going to succeed in eliminating an achievement that cost us a lot to bring about.”

The markets had already been shaken by a newspaper report in Germany that Hans Eichel, the Finance Minister, had attended a meeting to discuss the break-up of the euro. He denied the story.

On Thursday, Jean-Claude Trichet, the President of the European Central Bank, dismissed speculation about the end of the euro, calling it “totally absurd” and “complete nonsense”.

Many of the countries which joined the euro have suffered economic stagnation and rising unemployment, with people also blaming the currency for rising inflation. Although the German and French economies are stuttering, Italy has plunged into full blown recession.

The euro is vulnerable to a collapse in public support because none of the 12 countries that joined it allowed their people to approve the decision in a referendum. Many Dutch used the referendum on the constitution to show their disapproval of the euro, while in Germany polls show 56 per cent of people want to return to the mark.

A report called The Demise of the Euro by the Centre for European Policy Studies, a think-tank funded by the European Commission, admitted that the currency was probably responsible for Italy’s economic problems, which it predicted would soon afflict the majority of countries in the eurozone.

Confidence in the euro collapsed in the markets after the French and Dutch referendums, because economists believe that it would make it difficult for governments to co-ordinate action to keep the currency stable. The currency had already been hit by the collapse of the Stability Pact which underpinned it. Eurozone governments are now openly flouting their legal borrowing limits.
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#69
Is it any wonder that even the Germans wish to be unique and different. The D Mark is simply another means of obtaining that. And since it was always strong, the people want it back.

I suspect that they will get their wish in the end. Wink1
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#70
Seabird Wrote:I suspect its because Berlusconi, while being pro-Euro (for now), is also pro-US. More so at least than the rest of Ye Olde Europe. It would seem logical that Italy would be the first (next to GB) to bail from the EU and align herself with us.

I'm fairly sure that this has nothing to do with politics, but more with the projected 0.6% shrinking of the Italian economy this year (Both France and Germany are expected to grow even if by very little). But how a withdrawal from Euro -- which cannot be done overnight anyway -- may help, is beyond me.

===========

Now, on Germany:

Wash Times: German right vows improved U.S. relations
Quote:BERLIN -- The conservative Christian Democrats and their Free Democratic partners will restore Germany's alliance with the United States and downgrade Berlin's ties with Russia if they win elections in September, leaders from both parties say.

In a series of interviews, they also said that they would review their alliance with France, which they intend to keep strong, but warn Paris not to challenge Berlin to choose between the United States and France, as was the case with the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.

Wolfgang Schaeuble, deputy chairman of the Christian Democratic Union (CDU) parliamentary group who is in charge of foreign policy, accused Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder, a Social Democrat, of undermining trans-Atlantic ties.

"We have great interest in close relations with Russia, but they have to be balanced and should in no way be directed against the Atlantic partnership," said Mr. Schaeuble, who was interior minister under CDU Chancellor Helmut Kohl and helped negotiate Germany's 1990 reunification.

Germany's neighbor Poland should not be left out of German-Russian developments, and Berlin should be more critical of "the state of democracy in Russia," Mr. Schaeuble said.

"All this was not respected by Schroeder, and the closeness with Russia went far too far," he said. "We would change this nonsense and re-establish the balance in German-Russian relations."
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#71
Seabird Wrote:I'm a little confused about the point you are making. We make no bones about our existence as a representative republic. Use of the term "democracy" to describe ourselves has always been in error. I suspect most just use it as a sort of shorthand definition.(..)

My only intention was to flame a bit on the EU Constitution; the real definition of 'democracy' is given in the phrase, and I don't like the idea that ONLY the majority is sovereign. Another strange thing about the preamble is that it's trustors are not the people, but instead the heads of governments.

--------

Another commentary:
Quote:Out of Touch
WSJ - June 3, 2005

The British government yesterday seemed on the verge of declaring the EU Constitution dead, or at least calling off the U.K.'s own referendum on the treaty, which amounts to the same thing.

But as the EU's leaders scramble around for a Plan B that they insisted all along (truthfully, as it turned out) they never contemplated, some pretty bad ideas are starting to surface. Our nomination for one of the worst (so far) goes to Austrian Chancellor Wolfgang Schüssel, who earlier this week floated a trial balloon on a pan-EU referendum to get the thing approved.

Aside from the considerable legal obstacles to the proposal, which Mr. Schüssel acknowledged, the obvious question the proposal raises is why France or the Netherlands, both of which have decisively voted the treaty down, much less the U.K., which now looks unlikely to hold a vote, would allow themselves to be outvoted in a broader referendum. The obvious answer is that they would not.

(..)

Europe's heads of government are due to meet two weeks from now in Brussels for a previously scheduled summit that will now in all likelihood be dominated by the question of what to do next. The sensible course is to come out with a clear statement that the constitutional process has failed and to proceed with a period of reflection on how best to proceed. Any insistence on keeping the process alive will only confirm the fears of the "no" voters in France, Holland and elsewhere -- that the EU is an unaccountable, out-of-touch organization with little regard for the opinions of Europe's citizens.
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#72
What SNK posted,IMO,was great. America is not,never has been,nor never will be a strict democracy. We have a form of government far better,IMO.

Democracy is great,but it is not perfect and our system seems to me mitigates some of the worst features of democracy.

1 example,it is extremely difficult to change our constitution,can't happen overnight by a simple federal plebiscite. That is good.

Concerning Italy. Italians have no more affection for Americans than Frenchmen do. I doubt anything they do has anything to do with emotions,they are in Iraq because they are making a downpayment on Americans being in Italy when they need us,nothing more or less.

Whereas France and Germany no longer feel that need,Italians and Brits and Dutch still do,but they each as a group think quite lowly of our nation,IMO.
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#73
Palladin, I guess you'll like the other articles also then:

* People or citizen?
* Sovereignty
* Habeas Corpus

and many more in the index.
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#74
Yes, my wishes have been answered, the socialists may fall apart!!!!

The EU is proving to be more helpful to us, then to them. Shock
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#75
Gunnen4u Wrote:Yes, my wishes have been answered, the socialists may fall apart!!!!

This is called democracy! They ousted the leaders supported only by a vocal small fringe minority of 58%. Viva la France!

Now, they need to similarly clean up Chirac's party.
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#76
SNK Wrote:My only intention was to flame a bit on the EU Constitution; the real definition of 'democracy' is given in the phrase, and I don't like the idea that ONLY the majority is sovereign. Another strange thing about the preamble is that it's trustors are not the people, but instead the heads of governments.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. I wasn't sure which constitution you were referring to.
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#77
Good God, these folks are like a dog with a frisbee, they just don't quit.

But, awwwww, isn't this sweet...

[Image: _41219171_body300getty.jpg]
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#78
More Euro-Fu*:

Dump the euro, say Germans hurt by price rises

Quote:In the wake of the Dutch and French votes against the European constitution, the Germans have decided they want to scrap the euro and bring back their mark.

A people who once enthusiastically embraced Europe's common currency now feel swindled by it.

Fifty-six per cent of Germans questioned by the news magazine Stern yesterday said they wanted the mark back.

Sixty per cent said they still calculated prices in marks all the time, 25 per cent some of the time.

And a thumping 90 per cent - like many who voted in the Netherlands on Wednesday against the European constitution - believed that prices skyrocketed when the euro was introduced.

The mood in Germany has never been so sharply against the euro. Stern says the highest levels of government are debating a return to the mark.

For the past two years the euro has kept export prices high for firms struggling in a sclerotic economy: now it is on the downward slide, posing new threats to a land blighted by unemployment and harsh welfare reforms.

..... more at link above.....

Watch the Euro exchange rate on Monday. Stories like this one are capable of creating a self-reinforcing cycle...

PS: That was Fun, not an attempt to bypass the censor
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#79
This is all too comical when looking at it from across the Atlantic. Who is willing to bet the Euro will fall back down below the dollar as it once was?

The great attempt by Europe to match the US in economy and power has fizzled big-time.

No one shall match us. Muaahahahahaha!

At any rate:

It looks like Britain is going to seal the final fate of the EU constitution concerning a rebate, and policies it will follow when the UK assumes the EU presidency.

Quote:(...)

Blair will push instead for only minor “institutional tweaks” to help make the EU look more open and transparent. This would include allowing television cameras in to record the hitherto closed meetings of the council of ministers. The prime minister also thinks national parliaments should be given a first look at legislation proposed by the European commission.

Fearing that Britain will use its presidency to wreck the constitution, France issued a warning last night: “When Britain assumes the presidency it will take on the grave responsibility of making sure that it drives the spirit of integration forward,” said Chirac’s spokesman, Jérôme Bonnafont.

Blair’s determination to bury the constitution is matched by Schröder’s determination to save it. Schröder’s spokesman insisted Berlin wanted to press ahead with ratification.
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#80
Quote:This is all too comical when looking at it from across the Atlantic. Who is willing to bet the Euro will fall back down below the dollar as it once was?

Nobody. It will break up and dissappear first.

OK, finally I found the article that explains the Italian Euro problem well.

Telegraph via FR: EU dreamers get a reality check - what's in store for Italian euros?

The entire article is interesting, here is the related part:

Quote:In this week of great events in Europe, it was something small that really caught my eye. In an article about the problems of the euro, the German magazine Stern advised readers to check their euro banknotes. The notes issued in Germany, it explained, begin their serial numbers with "X"; those issued in Italy begin with "S". Hold on to the former, was the suggestion, and get rid of the latter while you can.

Being the proud possessor of 60 euros from a recent visit to France, I hurried off to check my little pile of pictures of long bridges stretching across our continent, and was relieved to find mostly reassuringly Teutonic "X" notes, one "Z" and two "U"s (is that France?). Phew, no "S".

Stern's X-factor advice was based on the idea that the euro zone might break up. When the euro began in 1999, it was glorious for Italy, Spain, Portugal and (prospectively) for Greece. Their interest rates halved. Boom followed. But those countries had not abolished their inflationary habits when they abolished their currency, and now they had lost their old remedy of devaluation. As a result, their competitiveness is collapsing. Italy's competitiveness against Germany has fallen by a quarter since 2000. Within the system today, all that Italy could do is to deflate, but in the resulting squeeze, revenues would fall, causing the deficit to explode. Real wages would have to be cut to compete with Germany. The politics would be horrible.

An alternative would be for the European Central Bank to inflate from the present two per cent a year to, say, four or five per cent to rescue the Mediterranean spendthrifts. But if that happened, there would be revolt in Germany. That devout believer in sound money only sacrificed her beloved deutschmark and joined the euro to make European finances German, not to make German finances Italian. It is therefore beginning to cross German minds (and other northern European ones, as the Dutch referendum vote showed) that they might be better off outside the currency. Hence the need to scrutinise the banknotes.

Actually, they do have a solution that is easy to implement: establish floating exchange rates between different series of banknotes. For example, two X-euros can be traded for three S-euros. Not one Mama-Euro, but many Baby-Euros.

Doing this would allow banks to collect huge transaction fees, in effect a new form of taxation, something that is certain to make the European left very happy. It will also create an entire new Euro-marking industry, many formerly unemployed people can be made busy rubbing in dog poop into the S-euros.
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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