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USA PATRIOT Act: Used to search innocent citizen's home
#21
WmLambert wrote;
Why ignore all the first hand reports called in by the passengers aboard the planes?

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What altitude do cell phones stop working ?
cell phones will not work at altitudes higher than 1000 feet

Witnesses came forward with accounts that the PA plane was shot down by military (f15 or f16) . This was reported then quickly the story changed . There was a military guy who went public on a syndicated radio

show naming the pilot that shot the plane down. I don't believe him though . I believe it was shot down but not by that guy. He was sent to plant misinformation . Rumsfeld has made two "Freudian slips" and said they

shot it down. Twice mind you in two separate interviews. They claim he mis-spoke . We are suppose to believe alot of stuff at people's word in this administration.

Not to mention the controversy in the way it went down. Officials said they were searching areas behind where the plane went down. They found debris in a pond behind the crash site. The Sherriff said it didn't even

look like a plane crash and witnesses reported pieces of the plane falling as it passed them overhead. There were also people that reported seeing another plane in the area. The huge area that debris was found and the

eyewitness accounts are consistent with the plane being shot down and not a crash. Many of the witnesses have been silenced under a gag order in the name of National Security. Of course, some have gone public.


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WmLambert wrote;
Ever hear any of his speeches or read any of his call for a jihad?
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This war is not about religion. It is about global government.
Yes, I know about "jihad". From the April 2005 issue of Newswatch magazine:
"The Islamics believe they have a calling from Allah to create a world government for him or exterminate anyone who will not conform to Islam. They also believe Osama bin Laden is a modern day messiah. In

fact, Sudan's vice-president Ali Osman Taha said, "The jihad is our way and we will not abandon it, and will keep it's banner high. We will never sell out our faith and will never betray the oath to our martyrs."

You see, these people think Osama bin Laden is to be their next martyr. The problem is bin Laden is a CIA provocateur who has sold out his Islamic jihadists. It seems every powerful government around the world

has been corrupted and participates in these kind of shady dealings.
This is where it can get complicated. First of all you are assuming that Osama is a true muslim and assuming that Bush is a true christian. Why would an extreme muslim call "jihad" on a Nazi Satanist ? Whooo, crazy

question here ehhh ?

This is my point;
Let's get to who the real culprits are, simply put, the International Bankers.
Whooo were is this leading ? Like I said this gets complicated.
Senator Prescott Bush (granddaddy) was involved with international bankers funding the Nazis in WW2 . In fact they funded both sides of that war. Senator Prescott Bush is a traitor and should have been prosecuted

for high treason. As other members of his family should also be.
Prescott Bush was a member of Skull and Bones a secret society out of Yale university. Skull and Bones is very complicated but well documented check it out for yourself. Oh by the way they participate in blood

satanic rituals. They gather for what they call "mock" human sacrifices at The Bohemian Grove . They do rituals to an owl god moluk. This is documented
in san fran Chronicle and other main stream newspapers. In July 2000 a ritual called "the cremation of care" was caught on video by an "uninvited" visitor. There are protests up there every year . Check it out for

yourself if you don't believe me. Clinton , Carter , Bush . Rumsfeld , Cheney , Reagan , Kissinger , Nixon , on and on and on and on . Check it out it is documented they even have Yearbooks. Of course they claim to

be "blowing off steam " World Leaders, some of the most powerful, self proclaimed Christian leaders, participating in "mock" human sacrifice satanic rituals.
I don't approve of it at all even if it is just "mock" . It is still sick. If I was burning mock human sacrifices to an owl god in my backyard, I would be investigated and arrested. Why is it ok for the rich and powerful?

Why is nobody concerned that this is how they decide to spend their free time? I don't believe it is just mock personally and there is some evidence pointing that way also.

There is a movie out called "The CIA and Satanism, the International Trafficking of Children", that has a lot of credible, well documented information in it.

Here it is.

http://pfabf.com/uploads/ciasatanism_chunk_1.wmv
http://pfabf.com/uploads/ciasatanism_chunk_2.wmv
http://pfabf.com/uploads/ciasatanism_chunk_3.wmv
http://pfabf.com/uploads/ciasatanism_chunk_4.wmv
http://pfabf.com/uploads/ciasatanism_chunk_5.wmv
http://pfabf.com/uploads/ciasatanism_chunk_6.wmv

shocking !!

Participation in satanism , and funding Nazis. Yeah the mark of a true Christian !!! Osama sold his Jihad brothers out too . A True Muslim? I would say not.

Oh yeah Both President Bushes and even John F. Kerry are members of Skull and Bones. That's 3 generations for the Bush Crime Families . Did you know the Bushes are Drug Lords. ? Another long stories . Gary Web a reporter from California was murdered for reporting this. Check it out for yourself. Oh yeah of course it was ruled a suicide . He shot himself in the face TWICE. Yeah right . Hunter S. Thompson was murdered also because he was working on stories involving 9/11 and cia drug trafficking rings. All white house operations mind you. See I am not kidding about this stuff. Why would I be risking my life by getting the truth out to people? Why ? It is Because I Love My Country. The founding fathers were a 5 percent minority voice in this country . Every body ridiculed them also. We are in a revolution right now. An Information War. See www.infowars.com

Ya see,
Gore, Ford , and Schwarzenegger yes they are all players in these elite secret circles.In order to reach the "top" you must have already committed some of the most heinous crimes against humanity. A crime syndicate is what we are talking about here. The elections are like staged wrestling or fixed boxing matches. It is not the vote makers but the vote takers that decide. Now Black Box Voting. It is A fraud.
Anyhow Bush, Kerry, Clinton, Carter, Reagan, Newt Gingritch, Hugh Hefner, it doesn't matter they are all a part of bringing in a one world government. They are all involved with Bohemian Grove. They are

puppets for the International Bankers who are pulling the strings . The real "masterminds". This is what David Gergen had to say about his membership in the club:
http://www.patriotleague.info/alexvsgergen.WMV

Hint the federal reserve is a privately owned bank that can be traced to the Bank of England. I thought we fought to stay out of England's Control ?

This is just simply ugly. Paul Revere warned that the British are coming !

They took over in 1913 when Wilson signed the Federal Reserve Act.
On his death bed he said, "I have unwittingly destroyed my country."Just Another puppet for the New World Order. Hitler's "world order" or the "order of the brotherhood" with whom our leaders' true allegiance lies.

see movie below

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WmLambert wrote;
His family is by and large estranged from him and as likely to turn him in as spit at him
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Says who? The msm? Have you spoken to the bin Ladens? If they want to turn him in, why not stick around after September 11, and answer questions? Instead they were flown out of the U.S. when even American

citizens could not get on a plane the day after. Two of Osama's brothers are also tied to Al-Qaeda. Why were members of the U.S. government meeting with Osama just prior to 9-11? I mean, come on! The

perpetrator of the biggest terrorist attack on America just happens to have business ties to the Bush family going back to the 70's and nobody seems to care? How many "coincidences" will the American people

tolerate? The whole thing about him being a "black sheep" is just a facade for business purposes. Osama has his own purpose by being the fall guy. In fact, there are several reports that when bin Laden does surface,

it's an imposter. There are several reports that he maintains contact with his family. I would have to dig deep into my archives to find more specifics on this. Basically the extreme muslim jihadists and members of

Project for a New American Century have a common interest that they are working in conjunction with each other to achieve, a one world government. Rumsfeld, Cheney, and Wolfowitz are founding members of

Project for a New American Century. An even better question is: Who is funding their operations? I am in the process of writing a book about this, but I don't intend this to be the book.


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WmLambert wrote;
The FBI did say they thoroughly vetted all the Saudi's who flew out of the U.S. after all the planes started flying again.
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I would really like to see the results and evidence from that examination. Remember we are taking the word of a federal organization that has been documented many, many, many times as being corrupt. Just

imagine, being the perpetrator of a crime and then being given the responsibility to investigate the crime that you are guilty of. I believe this is exactly what we are talking about here. And remember, the bin Laden

family and other Saudis were flown out before the planes had started flying again. Why such privilege? Unless you were unsure of how the masses would react? Wouldn't it have been just as easy to bring them to a

secure spot to interrogate them rather than rush them out of the country?
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Harry Thomas wrote:
I do see a lot of tyranny and billions of dollars being made. Don't you?

WmLambert wrote;
No. Now you sound like Waxman.
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I don't recall anybody by the name of Waxman, but what I do know is, there are billions of dollars being made on this war, and these contracts have been given to companies that have close ties to members of this

administration. What about all the trillions of dollars missing from the Pentagon? How come this isn't being reported widely in the media?

Now let's talk about tyranny. The Patriot Act was already written up and all they were waiting for was the "right event" so they would be able to introduce this legislation and justify a war with Iraq. This was

documented in literature from the Project for a New American Century.

This Patriot Act legislation was written by people who believe in torture and tyranny. They have a total disregard for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. The Constitution did not change on September 11,

2001. So what is this Patriot Act all about, if not tyranny?
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WmLambert wrote;
Yes, primarily because they refused to throw Sandy Berger in prison for destroying the evidence that probably proved that Clinton proclaimed a "hands-off" policy for Muslim terrorists, and ordered a strawdog attack

on Right-wing "extremists" in the U.S. as his best means of gaining traction politically.
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Well I've noticed that Clinton and Herbert Walker Bush have become best buddies lately, and it looks like Clinton is going to be a "big-wig" in the U.N. What about Guliani's role in removing evidence from the World

Trade Center? Weird that the same company was hired to quickly remove the debris from the WTC as they also did in the Oklahoma City bombing. Remember, history plays a key role in just about everything.
I agree about Sandy Berger's role, and the fact that Clinton was instrumental in protecting muslim terrorists from being investigated.

Now, let's not overlook President Bush's role in protecting and catering to muslim terrorists. What about his providing 6.5 million dollars in August 2001 to Afganistan and promising a total of $132 million in 2001?

Doesn't that make Bush a contributor to a country that harbors terrorists? We must acknowledge this false left-right paradigm if we are ever going to be able to unite and succeed in defeating this push for global

government. It has been reported by several intelligence agents that they were ordered by Bush not to look into Al-Qaeda and not look into Osama bin Laden. Al-Qaeda was created and funded by the CIA. Now let's

not forget, George H.W. Bush was the head of the CIA during the Nixon administration, but that's a whole 'nother long story.
Remember Bush had been notified consistantly about osama's "plans" Hypocritical to say the least. Remember Torture is now good . When Saddam did it BAD !!! Bad Boy !!!
more 1984 Doublespeak (remember George Orwell ? )
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WmLambert wrote;
Ask Sandy Berger... or show us the front door of the Branch Dravidian church.
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Well, I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but I will say that the whole Waco issue is best covered by a movie called "America Wake Up or Waco".
Otherwise this is another complicated thing to get into.
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WmLambert wrote;
it probably would have been better to do that in the full daylight, instead of lending conspiracists unnecessary fuel for distracting theories.
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Conspiratists? Not exactly sure what you mean. How am I a conspiracist? What am I conspiring to do? What I'm talking about here is a conspiracy , not a theory. I have researched and found hard facts, that makes it not a theory. This research is very painful.
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WmLambert wrote;
Because under Clinton, the FBI was so inept and feckless that they couldn't tie their shoelaces together without falling over.
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And you believe there has been improvement?
General William E. Odom's book "Fixing Intelligence" was published in 2003, over a year after the 9/11 attack. ...General Odom used a series of questions to convey his concerns about CIA assassination teams,

domestic surveillance of civilians, and CIA officers in the media. He wrote:"... should the CIA be permitted to carry out assassinations? Should Army Counterintelligence be involved in domestic surveillance of

civilians? Should CIA clandestine officers be allowed to have cover as journalists? Should the Intelligence Community budget be made public?" (William Odom, "Fixing Intelligence", Yale University Press, 2003,

front flap cover, p.2)

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WmLambert wrote;
Or did he? Do you know something?
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Osama obviously did not get norad to stand down, so who did get norad to stand down? Who was giving the orders that day?
Wargames on 9/11 paralyzed attempts to intercept planes
During the morning of 9/11 five U.S. sponsored war games were taking place, some involving "live-fly" exercises where actual aircraft were simulating the behavior of hijacked airliners in real life, which paralyzed the

FAA, norad, and the Air Force from using the same Standard Operating Procedure they had applied between 09/00 and 06/01 when they successfully launched fighters on 67 occasions to escort wayward aircraft.(FAA

08/09/02)

"Is this real world or an exercise?"-Col. Robert K. Marr Jr., Northeast Air Defense Sector
"We have reports of 11 aircraft off course..."-FAA Administrator Jane Garvey
"We didn't know how many more there were..."-Lt. Col. william E. Glover Jr., NORAD Air Defense Operations

Download and read Chapter 19 at: www.newsociety.com/News/rub_war.pdf
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WmLambert wrote;
It's called a wristwatch
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What's a wristwatch? Is that a code word for something? I of course am kidding also.
But really How could he ? He couldn't but someone could . But who Cheney? hmmmmmm think about it.

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Harry Thomas wrote:
How could 3 steel structured buildings collapse from fire?
This is unheard of.
WmLambert wrote;
On the contrary, the science and engineering data is conclusive.
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Where did you get this information from? Architects and engineers have said it's NOT possible. These are the only steel builings in history to collapse from fire. There have been buildings burning for days, not an

hour and a half, that did not collapse. The Carrington Fire Tests showed steel can survive temperatures higher that what the WTC burned at. Again, you are taking this information from people who have a vested

interest in covering things up. Please do not look solely at the 911 commission report as assume they are telling the truth. This is criminals investigating criminals.
How could so many syndicated radio shows point these facts out and not be sued? Thats Because The Guilty would have to prove the allegations were false . Guess what they can't . They can't afford the "publicity" either. Therer is push to regulate the internet. Why the push do you think? Why is popular mechanics running "Hit " pieces on the patriot movement? This should be noted also.
see Genesis Communications Network and The Republic Broadcasting Network . There are many other Patriot Radio Stations. Honest Law abiding concerened citizens.Why are most of the 9/11 families suing the government? why is the media not reporting this?

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WmLambert wrote;

What do you specifically call wrong about the facts attested to and then confirmed by the 9/11 Commission Report?
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I am more concerned with what was not covered. Building 7 was never even mentioned in this report. It was not an independant report, if the government has any possibility of being involved, then they should not

have been the ones investigating .
I had a lot more written about the 9/11 report last night when I originally started this. Unfortunatly, I lost hours worth of work on my reply when I went to preview and spell-check it. S4
I am sure we will get back to this subject.


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WmLambert wrote;
We know that the names used by the pilots may have been lifted from others—so what does it matter that any of those with their identities stolen are still alive?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
That is still assuming they are the masterminds. I disagree.
What is funny is the story how the passport fell out of the sky unharmed while mostly everything else was turned to a dustlike substance at WTC.
hmmmmmmmm I don't buy it.
Also the story about the passports and stuff the extreme Jihad Muslims left at the strip bar while they were partying . It was reported they were "bragging" about what they were gonna do.
Do you believe that?
Assuming they are the culprits. Is this what the feds go on? Not to mention prior knowlege.

Intelligence: A Warning to Cheney About Terror—In 1976
Newsweek | March 28, 2005
http://pfabf.net/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=714

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WmLambert wrote;
Only an idiot would not think bin Laden had motivation and benefited from 911
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I agree and disagree

Motive ahhh thats questionable . That is if you still think he was solely behind it.

Benefited - Oh yeah he is still alive right? (fall guy) His family is benefiting greatly from Osama's "sacrifice" It is organized crime when a guy has to take the fall. He is protected. Why did Bush quit focusing on

Osama and go after Sadam?
Besides oil ?
Is Sadam protected ? This remains to be seen.
His "reported" capture was a fraud. Do you actually believe Sadam was living in a hole? Come on natives of the area said the figs on the bushes in the background were not even in season on the date they claimed the

capture occured. They quickly quit showing those pictures. Same as the pictures that were quickly not shown anymore shortly after 9-11-01.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

WmLambert wrote;
Almost all the hijackers have been traced back to the Baluchs, and Laurie Mylroie ties together Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, Ramzi Yousef, Abdul Hakam Murad, and others quite succinctly, don't you agree?
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I wasn't familiar with her work but I did read this website.
http://www.benadorassociates.com/article/283

That is if you are assuming they are the culprits. I don't believe they are solely behind any of those events. The culprits have to have somebody to blame. I believe they are scape goats or "fallguys" and this is why.

We don't have any real investigative journalism . The sources are from the government.

"Immediately after the World Trade Center was destroyed, the Eastern Establishment-CIA complex, mobilized their agents in the media, and tried to conceal the fact that the Neocons in the Bush Administration

were planning to attack Iraq. Most government officials refused to discuss that issue, but Paul O'Neill, a prominent member of President Bush's Cabinet from January 2001 until December 2003, revealed what

happened: his shocking revelations are recorded in Ron Suskind's book, "The Price of Loyalty". Paul O'Neill was asked to resign from President Bush's Cabinet because he feared the Administrations economic policies

would destroy our economy and result in financial ruin." (Ron Suskind, "The Price of Loyalty", Simon & Schuster, New York, 2004, p. 306-309)

Was Paul O'Neill murdered? What exactly was he trying to expose when he died? Check that one out. You'll be surprised what you'll find. What did Paul O'Neill know? Again, this in itself is a very long story.

Check this out. Learn more about the Federal Reserve.banking federal reserve documentary
Description: banking federal reserve documentary windows media video (wmv) 4 parts

http://pfabf.com/uploads/bankingfederalr...hunk_1.wmv
http://pfabf.com/uploads/bankingfederalr...hunk_2.wmv
http://pfabf.com/uploads/bankingfederalr...hunk_3.wmv
http://pfabf.com/uploads/bankingfederalr...hunk_4.wmv

John F. Kennedy two weeks prior to his death, announced he was going forward with a plan to abolish the Federal Reserve, CIA and CFR. The CIA murdered him because of this.
Documentary evidence of this is shown in a move called "JFK 2: The Bush Connection".

here goes
part 1
http://pfabf.com/uploads/JFKtoBUSH_chunk_1.wmv
http://pfabf.com/uploads/JFKtoBUSH_chunk_2.wmv
http://pfabf.com/uploads/JFKtoBUSH_chunk_3.wmv
http://pfabf.com/uploads/JFKtoBUSH_chunk_4.wmv
part 2
http://pfabf.com/uploads/JFKtoBUSH2_chunk_1.wmv
http://pfabf.com/uploads/JFKtoBUSH2_chunk_2.wmv
http://pfabf.com/uploads/JFKtoBUSH2_chunk_3.wmv
http://pfabf.com/uploads/JFKtoBUSH2_chunk_4.wmv


There is a lot more that I could add to this, but I am sure someone will have something to say in response, and I will add more at that point. This is actually my "second" reply . Like I said I lost everything during that "spell check" thing that seems to be mandatory. I did like my first reply better oh well ? Somes times you just can't word things the same way twice. Any writers out there will know what I am talking about.

People For A Better Future calls for an independent, non-partisan investigation into the events of September 11, 2001.



peace,
harry
People For A Better Future
We WILL Make A Difference !
www.pfabf.org
Reply
#22
harry, do you have a Reader's Digest version? S1
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
About Coronavirus - “Suddenly I begin to understand why Charlie gets so excited over taking a walk outside.”
Reply
#23
Harry, I believe your heart is in the right place, but many of the "facts" you put forward came straight out of spin web sites that repeat incorrect statements as if they were correct—and the hundredth time a person sees the same disinformation he's inclined to think there must be something to it.

As John L said, you unloaded a lot of incorrect notions that all have common-sense answers, that are not products of the government. For instance, in other threads in this forum I've gone to great specificity on the "steel reinforced buildings can't burn" scenario. My own son (who is a construction engineer) was in a meeting with other engineers on 9/11, and they knew to within minutes of when the buildings would collapse.

Why don't you put out your questions one at a time, instead of by broadside, so they can be debated? I think you'd be surprised by how much alike we think after we get past the misstated facts and purposeful disinformation.

BTW, Congressman Waxman (with the big nostrils) single-handedly alleged Halliburton was illegally ripping off the U.S. in hundreds of attacks he made against them. After the courts reviewed the facts, Waxman was wrong in every instance. Similar to David Bonior and his endless ethics charges against Newt Gingrich.
Reply
#24
Time will show that the main reason why the two towers collapsed so quickly is due to the restriction of Asbestos as a fire retardant. Several articles have mentioned this, but it is not hailed, because the 'greens' managed to paint a picture of asbestos in a far worse light than was true. Just like DDT. When Kooks get stirred up, strange things happen.

Here are some links showing the conclusion.

On the EPA, asbestos, and the World Trade Center

A cautionary Tale

WTC collapse due to environmentalism?

And last, but certainly not least

Asbestos and the WTC Collapse

Harry, you have to be careful about what you read. Fortunately you are interested in learning the truth, so I thought I would mention what the Kooks can put out.

And speaking of Kooks, do you know the definition of an Eco-Wacko ? Fortunately most of them are in the Green Party, where we can keep an eye on them, so I thought I would show you what you are associating with. No offense intended here, of course. Read the link, and you will get a good chuckle from someone who knows his field; nuclear fission. BTY, the Greens are totally against fission. Why are they doing this, since it makes such good sense?

This is without a doubt my favorite article of all time. It has all the ingredients, all in one package. It is humorous, informative, truely accurate, absolutely true, and worth studying in detail. After reading this article, I made a concertive effort understanding the nuclear process, and I have learned enough to flately state that the absolute cure to our energy solution should be placed on a bedrock of nuclear power. And since fusion is not practical, as of yet, the logical solution is fission.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
About Coronavirus - “Suddenly I begin to understand why Charlie gets so excited over taking a walk outside.”
Reply
#25
I am "longwinded" . I have been told a few times on Yahoo groups about that. Believe it or not I tied to cut it short. The first reply was longer.
Seriously I didn't mean to broadside anyone with information.

My intentions are not to put out any disinformation . I am unclear exactly what is in question. Is spin not a PC word for propaganda.

Ok I see Mr. WmLambert what you are saying and am glad that people do steer me in the right direction when I am wrong. It has helped me greatly.

I also look for "spin" If you would please let me know what you think this guy's "spin" is . And what is his purpose behind it. ?
I believe the guy is telling the truth about his experiences.

His name is Mike Ruppert author -The Truth and Lies of 9/11
watch the video of the first 34 minutes
http://www.thelawparty.com/MediaPlayer/9...rt156k.wmv
To listen to the rest http://pfabf.org/uploads/TruthandLies911...vie1_1.wma
http://pfabf.org/uploads/TruthandLies911...vie2_2.wma
I am gonna look into Waxman


John L. I see you have made a post I have not had a chance to look into what you have said . I will .

added ; BTW I don't really follow the "greens" for the most part and am well aware of the UN land grab if that's a part of what you mean.

peace
harry
People For A Better Future
We WILL Make A Difference !
www.pfabf.org
Reply
#26
Harry,

Beware of Mike Ruppert. I don't trust him.

Here's a thread that I started in the "Resources" section that has much credible 9/11 information: http://www.ai-jane.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1650

I posted Cynthia Mckinney's questioning of Donald Rumsfeld, Richard Myers, and Under Secretary of Defense (Comptroller) Tina Jonas about Dyncorp slave rings, the 3 trillion missing from the pentagon, and 9/11 wargames. If you haven't seen it yet you should check it out. Myers actually admits to the 9/11 wargames.

Stallone
[Image: nr_just_say_no.jpg]
...to tyranny
Reply
#27
HarryThomas Wrote:BTW I don't really follow the "greens" for the most part and am well aware of the UN land grab if that's a part of what you mean.

That's really not what I was referring to . I am thinking of the word 'Kook'. The green movement today is really the haven of the Socialist/Friendly Fascist Left. And seriously, I am not trying to go overboard. Perhaps the best means of obtaining State dominance over the pupulous is using good issues as cover. Most of us here are very much in favour of preserving the environment. However, going overboard is not a logical solution. Actually the best way to preserve the well being of the environment is through the use of private property rights. A great example is home ownership vs renting. A peson who owns the property will, by nature, appreciate and wish to protect his/her investment.

And while I absolutely despise the UN, and think that it should be moved out country, I find the 'land grab' issue a bit much. I will grant you that it is seriously attempting to grab power through a couple of issues that are far more important than the 'land grab' issue. Actually three issues. First is their desire to tax the member nations. Second is the prospect of having a standing military. And third is the attempt to disarm the law abiding citizens. These three things really have me up in arms, pardon the pun, but I find the other extreme accusations to be a bit far. And I say this because the UN is so inept that they couldn't find their ass with both hands.

While I disagree with some of your specifics, I do wholeheartldly support your beliefs in general.

What I find refreshing is your desire to learn and weigh all the issues. This is a very positive thing. Please stick with us, and perhaps we will both learn from each other.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
About Coronavirus - “Suddenly I begin to understand why Charlie gets so excited over taking a walk outside.”
Reply
#28
Those buildings came down because they had bombs planted in them. I don't know who planted them but many witnesses said they heard bombs going off:

Firefighter, Louie Cacchioli
: "On the last trip up a bomb went off. We think there was bombs set in the building."
http://prisonplanet.com/louie_cacchioli.htm

FDNY Chief of Safety Reported Bombs Both Within the Towers and on the Planes on 9/11:
http://www.prisonplanet.tv/articles/may2...sinwtc.htm

Robert Ivy, FAIA Editor-in-chief:"we felt a rumble like faraway thunder and turned. The impossible was happening. The south tower of the World Trade Center shook, and in what resembled an elemental act, fell to earth in a mighty shout. The entire dissolution, the changeover from solid elements to ash, took only seconds, and it was gone."
http://www.archrecord.com/news/fromTheFi...terror.asp

Neil deGrasse Tyson:
"I hear a second explosion in WTC 2, then a loud, low-frequency rumble that precipitates the unthinkable -- a collapse of all the floors above the point of explosion. First the top surface, containing the helipad, tips sideways in full view. Then the upper floors fall straight down in a demolition-style implosion, taking all lower floors with it, even those below the point of the explosion..."

"...I hear another explosion followed by a now all-too familiar rumble that signaled the collapse of WTC 1, the first of the two towers to have been hit. I saw the iconic antenna on this building descend straight down in an implosion twinning the first."
http://www.planetary.org/html/society/ad...count.html

CBS News Channel Eyewitness Describes 'Secondary Explosions' in WTC
http://www.prisonplanet.tv/articles/apri...osions.htm

Nadine Keller: "There was smoke everywhere. I heard the bomb and saw both buildings crumble like biscuits."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1537500.stm

Teresa Veliz:
"There were explosions going off everywhere. I was convinced that there were bombs planted all over the place and someone was sitting at a control panel pushing detonator buttons. I was afraid to go down Church Street toward Broadway, but I had to do it. I ended up on Vesey Street. There was another explosion. And another."
http://www.thememoryhole.org/911/veliz-bombs.htm

Witnesses report bombs going off in the WTC. Also a 10 minute video presentation by MIT Engineer/Research Scientist, Jeff King about explosions/bombs in the World Trade Center buildings.
http://reopen911.org/video/cte_07.mov
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#29
Explain how this building fell down:

[Image: SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif]

How did Building 7 fall down on 9/11?

http://www.ai-jane.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1643
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#30
Stallone,

I tried to PM you but I am usure if it worked. The page kept coming back ?

What do you know about ruppert?

I just actually "stumbled" across his stuff at truthstream.org.

His story does seem to follow many others accounts of the cia drug ring.

What makes you suspicous of him?

e-mail if you want or you can find me at pfabf.

peace
harry
People For A Better Future
We WILL Make A Difference !
www.pfabf.org
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#31
Quote:What do you know about ruppert?
The jury is still out on him but from what I've read it's looking like he's a shill. I try to stay away from his stuff just in case. I won't go in to it further here but I'll post a few links for you:

It's Time To Ignore Michael Ruppert
http://www.indybay.org/news/2005/01/1716764.php

WING TV (there's a bunch of info on Ruppert at this website, they no likey him)
http://69.28.73.17/

Dave McGowan Newsletter #70
Beware the 'Peak Oil' Agenda
http://www.davesweb.cnchost.com/nwsltr70.html

You'll find more if you google: Mike Ruppert Shill

Stallone

PS. I didn't get your PM.
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#32
Harry, for your convenience, here is the link to the famous Popular Mechanics Cover story: 9/11: Debunking the Myths.
Quote:Healthy skepticism, it seems, has curdled into paranoia. Wild conspiracy tales are peddled daily on the Internet, talk radio and in other media. Blurry photos, quotes taken out of context and sketchy eyewitness accounts have inspired a slew of elaborate theories: The Pentagon was struck by a missile; the World Trade Center was razed by demolition-style bombs; Flight 93 was shot down by a mysterious white jet. As outlandish as these claims may sound, they are increasingly accepted abroad and among extremists here in the United States.
This presentation is a bonafied attempt to answer the many claims put out without real facts behind them. It is ironic that the very kooks who were debunked thoroughly in this article then have the chutzpah to come back and ridicule PM for falling for lies. Point after point is completely sourced and explained by the top professionals in the appropriate fields. The paranoid responses are by kooks who have no sources except what they claim "sounds like common sense."

I'm sure there may be a few unanswered questions that can be fairly debated, but most of the whacko stuff is strictly unfounded disinformation.

Jim Meigs from PM Wrote:Healthy skepticism is a good thing. Nobody should take everything they hear--from the government, the media or anybody else--at face value. But in a culture shaped by Oliver Stone movies and "X-Files" episodes, it is apparently getting harder for simple, hard facts to hold their own against elaborate, shadowy theorizing.

Fortunately, facts can be checked. For our special report, PM compiled a list of the 16 most common claims made by conspiracy theorists, assertions that are at the root of virtually every 9/11 alternative scenario. These claims all involve fields that are part of PM's core expertise--structural engineering, aviation, military technology and science.

We assembled a team of reporters and researchers, including professional fact checkers and the editors of PM, and methodically analyzed all 16 conspiracy claims. We interviewed scores of engineers, aviation experts, military officials, eyewitnesses and members of the investigative teams who have held the wreckage of the attacks in their own hands. We pored over photography, maps, blueprints, aviation logs and transcripts. In every single instance, we found that the facts used by conspiracy theorists to support their fantasies were mistaken, misunderstood or deliberately falsified.

Reasonable people are entitled to wish that our government had been better prepared and more alert. But those who peddle fantasies that this country encouraged, permitted or actually carried out the attacks are libeling the truth--and disgracing the memories of the thousands who died that day.

I took the time and intellectual effort to check out the checking out and concur. I know the insulation material that should have been on the superstructure on the higher floors, but was inadequate due to a building code change that allowed substandard construction. Efforts were underway to correct the lapses, but not in time to prevent the collapse.
Quote:http://wtc.nist.gov/pubs/MediaUpdate%20_...051303.pdf

Fireproofing Material, Thickness Requirements, and Measured Data. The open-web bar joists that supported the floors of WTC 1 were initially fireproofed with an asbestos-based sprayon material, Cafco Blaze-Shield Type D. No information about the required thickness was specified in either project specifications or drawings to achieve the required 2 hour rating. The Port Authority directed the fireproofing contractor to apply 1/2 in of fireproofing to the bar joists.

After fireproofing of the first 38 floors of WTC 1 was completed using asbestos-containing Cafco Type D, the fireproofing material was changed to Cafco Blaze-Shield Type D C/F, a nonasbestos product. There are no records specifying any changes in the thickness requirements to protect the bar joists using the new product, Blaze-Shield D C/F.

A few sample area data sheets, from surveys conducted in 1990 in support of litigation related to the asbestos-based fireproofing, reported that the fireproofing thickness on the floor joists was consistently about 1/2 in. Measurements taken in 1993 on two floors (Floors 23 and 24) of WTC 1 provide some quantitative data on actual applied thickness of fireproofing. Results indicate an average thickness of fireproofing from a relatively small sample (16 random trusses from two floors out of a total of 220 possible floors) to be 0.74 in, with a minimum average (of six measurements) value of 0.52 in and a maximum average value of 1.17 in for each of the tested bar joists. Four of the 32 bar joists had average thicknesses that varied between 0.52 in and 0.56 in. These measurements suggest that the minimum thickness exceeded 1/2 in.

A study performed by the Port Authority in 1995 concluded that 1-1/2 in of fireproofing was required for chords and web members of the bar joists. The Port Authority issued guidelines in 1999 for fireproofing repairs, replacement, and upgrades adopting the 1-1/2 in thickness requirement for the bar joists. By 2000 about 30 floors had been upgraded. Floors 92-100 of WTC 1 as well as floors 77-78, 88-89, 92, 96-97 of WTC 2 had been upgraded. Construction audit reports suggest that the minimum thickness requirement was met. Cafco Blaze-Shield II was used for the upgrade, not Blaze-Shield D C/F.

A property condition report prepared for the Port Authority in 2000 concluded that the rating of the structural fireproofing in the WTC towers and subgrade had been judged to be "an adequate 1 hour rating considering the fact that all Tower floors are now sprinklered" and noting the ongoing program to upgrade the fireproofing thickness to 1-1/2 in to achieve a 2 hour fire rating.

Adhesion of Fireproofing, and Ability to Withstand Shock, Impact, and Vibration. Problems with adhesion of Cafco Type D were reported during construction of the WTC towers. A more recent report, issued in 2000, also indicates that, in the majority of the cases, the existing fireproofing required so much patching that it was more effective to replace it with new fireproofing material. The construction audit reports associated with upgrading the fireproofing to 1-1/2 in thickness suggest that the minimum bond strength requirement of 150 psf was met. NIST has not received any records that document the shock, vibration, and impact properties of the specific fireproofing materials used in the WTC towers.
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#33
Hello WmLambert

I am fully aware of the Popular Mechanics Magazine . Tara and I did a whole Show debunking it. We also put out a 7 page front and back color Newsletter devoted to it.

I take a stand when it comes to media deception and Yellow Journalism will not stand.

check out our review.
http://pfabf.com/wst_page8.html

This months newsletter debunks the national geographic TV piece.
see
http://www.pfabf.org/wst_page9.html


peace
harry
People For A Better Future
We WILL Make A Difference !
www.pfabf.org
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#34
It's hard to swallow that explanation when it comes from the very people who may have been involved. The independent Cardington Fire Tests showed steel buildings survived fire experiments with temperatures beyond the range possible with jet fuel.

The PM article contends the steel was not melted, but weakened, by the fire. It does not explain why both buildings came down in such a neat "pancake" fashion. If the steel had buckled, like PM wants us to believe, would not have the buildings come down like a felled tree instead? With huge blocks of concrete and steel instead of the pulverized dust they turned into? And that's only one point easily debated.

I've gotta go with common sense here, and it tells me the PM article leaves out too much to "debunk" anything.

I almost forgot. The architects who designed the WTC said the building could have survived multiple plane hits.

It's also (I believe) no coincidence that the senior researcher for PM, Benjamin Chertoff, is Homeland Security Director Michael Chertoff's cousin.
TaraLeigh, proud member People for a Better Future
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#35
Stallone is probably right about the explosion part, but I will stick with the explosions being the work of the terrorists, and the cause being from the aircraft themselves.

As for the collapse of the buildings, it is entirely logical to expect a building to fall in the manner they did if the upper section is still intact and the lower section weakened to the point of failure. If one point fails, the pressure on the others would be great enough to cause the remainder to give. And note here that many of the existing supports had most assuridly already given up their strength before the actual collapse.

I think that the removal of asbestos from the heat retardant program is the principal cause of the building's collapse.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
About Coronavirus - “Suddenly I begin to understand why Charlie gets so excited over taking a walk outside.”
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#36
if you watch any of the countless videos taken form inside the buildings, there is no evidence of explosive charges before the collapse. i cant even imagine how much TNT would be needed to bring down the WTC, and i still don't see a motive. number 7 was knocked down, wasn't it? or was it a few days after 9/11 it was knocked down. regardless, who put the explosives there, how did they do it secretly, why did they do it and who did it are a few questions that you need to answer when you carry a conspiracy like this on your back, and the trail of documentation must be maintained the entire time. i understand anger at the government, but i do not see a New World Order foundation here, nor do i see how Bonesmen had anything to do with it. i have heard much garbage about the Freemasons, and they are often associated with crack pot theories like these.
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#37
It is impossible for the buildings to come down in the amount of time that they did. Faster than the speed of gravity? How could that be ? the lower floors would have given resistance and slowed it down.

They were detonated and it was planned well in advance. The "pancake theory" does not explain why the buildings were reduced to dust or account for how fast they fell . The only thing that could possibly achieve that effect is high tech explosives.

I think;
Building 7 was the "control" center in which they detonated the bombs . Thats why 7 had to go to destroy evidence. It came down at about 5:30 pm on september 11,2001. The owner larry silverstein admitted they "pulled" the building. It takes weeks if not months to set up a demolishin charge. Yes folks I am not kidding they were imploded and I am downright mad about it. The firefighters and everybody else was in the buildings and they murdered them . Check out this compilation I made from footage I saved from that day. Remember news agencies will not release their footage. They are way controlled to the point they are involved in criminal activity. This is not uncommon most of the top banks are nothing but drug laundering rackets. Ummmm citi bank comes to mind but then again i will use constraint and keep it short S1

peace
harry
People For A Better Future
We WILL Make A Difference !
www.pfabf.org
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#38
Quote:I think;
Building 7 was the "control" center in which they detonated the bombs . That's why 7 had to go to destroy evidence.

who is "they"? and to what purpose are they knocking our buildings down?

I'm not conceding any points, i just feel the argument is better suited elsewhere than the physics behind 9/11 as i was glued to the television for 24 straight hours that day and saw NO evidence of foul play on the part of our govt.

but i appreciate your dedication to your points. i have met many people who simply reiterate what they read in a pamphlet at an anti-war rally, and it is refreshing to find someone who believes in what they say.

I'm a 9/11 Republican. perhaps this was more than a way to secure votes, though? i am interested in hearing your thoughts.
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#39
this what Is the compilation I made from stuff I have (I have the original good quality video) this was converted for mass use.

http://pfabf.com/uploads/explosions.wmv

more stuff not mine
http://pfabf.com/uploads/danratherreport...llapse.wmv
http://pfabf.com/uploads/firefighterwitnessbombsTT.wmv
http://pfabf.com/uploads/witnessexplosivesTT.wmv

http://pfabf.com/uploads/chiefofsafetyfi...ndarys.wmv

http://pfabf.com/uploads/choppter2secondary.wmv
http://pfabf.com/uploads/4thexplosion.wav

BUILDINGS IN HISTORY to collapse from fire.

The Windsor Building in Madrid, Spain burned for 2 DAYS! Several top floors collapsed on to lower ones, yet the building remained standing.

In Caracus, Venezuela a fire in a 56-story building burned for 17 hours. Two floors collapsed, the building still stood.

From the time the North Tower was hit to it’s collapse was 1 hr 43 min.

From the time the South Tower was hit to it’s collapse was 47 min.

The steel buckling does NOT explain how the buildings came down so neatly. If the collapse began at the floor with the fire, and not at the top, how was it that the upper floors simply disappeared into dust instead of crashing to the earth as a block of tons of concrete and steel?

engineers cry foul
http://pfabf.com/uploads/engineerscryfoul.wmv

http://pfabf.com/uploads/moreproofbldgsd...sefire.wmv

http://pfabf.com/uploads/otherbldgsburnedmadrid.wmv

Lets not forget Silverstien who had alot to gain.
http://pfabf.com/uploads/larrysayspulli.wmv

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://pfabf.com/uploads/b7eyewitnessdemo.wmv

the most shocking acount
http://pfabf.com/uploads/firefightersboomboomboom.wmv

the fires were almost out
http://pfabf.com/uploads/firesalmostout.wmv
http://pfabf.com/uploads/firefightersreb...stout2.wmv

http://pfabf.com/uploads/siesmagraphs.wmv
marvin bush was in charge of security wow how many coinsidences do we need.
http://pfabf.com/uploads/marvinbushransecrity.wmv

Rudolph Giuliani Got Warning WTC Towers Were Going To Collapse
explosive video
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/apr...arning.htm

how come the rescue workers were not warned ?
You need devastation to bring in tyranny.



Who did this ? It was orchestrated by warmongers my friend . They sit on the strings of International Bankers who have been making tons of money not only on this staged event but others now for decades. Follow the money. Who stands to gain ? Us citizens - NO Muslim terrorists - NO
International Bankers , War contractors , Politicians thats who stands to gain. There is a crime syndicate in this country and they are residing in the White House. Clinton and his FBI cronies failed to bring in the devastation they wanted to achieve in "93" .
Why ? See some of my other posts and watch the federal reserve documentary.

peace
harry

ps added "not to mention all the records in bldg 7 and wtc 1+2 that was destroyed"
People For A Better Future
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#40
WmLambert quoted PM
Quote:Healthy skepticism, it seems, has curdled into paranoia. Wild conspiracy tales are peddled daily on the Internet, talk radio and in other media. Blurry photos, quotes taken out of context and sketchy eyewitness accounts have inspired a slew of elaborate theories: The Pentagon was struck by a missile; the World Trade Center was razed by demolition-style bombs; Flight 93 was shot down by a mysterious white jet. As outlandish as these claims may sound, they are increasingly accepted abroad and among extremists here in the United States.

Quote:The Pentagon was struck by a missile
So where's the surveillance video of the Pentagon attack showing a 757 hitting it? This video does not conclusively show one:
[Image: e-pentagon_animation.gif]

Here's a close up. Look like a 757 to you?
[Image: aircraftoutlined.jpg]

Looks more like a black A3 SkyWarrior to me:
[Image: a3skywarrior.jpg]

Unfortunately the FBI seized all the surveillance video from surrounding business and refuses to release it to put an end to all the "outlandish claims." PM neglected to mention that. I wonder why?:

Documenting the legal process to obtain confiscated videos showing Flight 77 crashing into the Pentagon on 9/11
http://www.flight77.info/

PM also fails to present this report from CNN on the day of the attacks:

JAMIE MCINTYRE: "From my close-up inspection, there's no evidence of a plane having crashed anywhere near the Pentagon.

The only site, is the actual side of the building that's crashed in. And as I said, the only pieces left that you can see are small enough that you pick up in your hand. There are no large tail sections, wing sections, fuselage, nothing like that anywhere around which would indicate that the entire plane crashed into the side of the Pentagon and then caused the side to collapse.

Even though if you look at the pictures of the Pentagon you see that the floors have all collapsed, that didn't happen immediately. It wasn't until almost about 45 minutes later that the structure was weakened enough that all of the floors collapsed."

Click below to watch the CNN news clip:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/feb...oplane.htm
::EDIT:: The link above has been scrubbed! Here's another one: http://thewebfairy.com/911/pentagon/index.html


Quote:the World Trade Center was razed by demolition-style bombs
Credible Witness after credible witness says there were (see this thread). Even Larry Silverstein admits this in a PBS documentary. PM didn't go there either:
[Image: pp190104larrys.jpg][Image: SMALL_wtc-7_1_.gif]
Here he is commenting on Building 7 recalling: "getting a call from the, uh, fire department commander, telling me that they were not sure they were gonna be able to contain the fire, and I said, 'You know, we've had such terrible loss of life, maybe the smartest thing to do is, is pull it.' And they made that decision to pull and then we watched the building collapse."
http://www.nw0.info/files/eMEDIA/WTC7_Si...ession.wmv
::EDIT:: The above link has been scrubbed! Here is another one courtesy of HarryThomas: http://pfabf.com/uploads/larrysayspulli.wmv

"Pull" is the industry term used when a demolition team is about to blow up a building. It's used again in the very same documentary when demolishing Building 6 a couple of months after 9/11:

"... we're getting ready to 'pull' building six.":
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/pull-it2.mp3
Quote:Flight 93 was shot down by a mysterious white jet.
PM failed to mention this too:

Quote from Donald Rumsfeld:
"And I think all of us have a sense if we imagine the kind of world we would face if the people who bombed the mess hall in Mosul, or the people who did the bombing in Spain, or the people who attacked the United States in New York, shot down the plane over Pennsylvania and attacked the Pentagon, the people who cut off peoples' heads on television to intimidate, to frighten -- indeed the word "terrorized" is just that. Its purpose is to terrorize, to alter behavior, to make people be something other than that which they want to be."
http://edition.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0412/...nn.01.html

WmLambert Wrote:The paranoid responses are by kooks who have no sources except what they claim "sounds like common sense."
Quit lying and calling people kooks who just want answers and not BS strawman arguments that are in articles like PM.

Debunk the many witnesses that reported bombs in the building including the fire department. Debunk the collapse of building 7. Debunk the wargames that were being run on 9/11. Debunk the prior knowledge of the attacks:

CIA Director George Tenet warned Congressmen of “an imminent attack on the United States of this nature.”

From National Public Radio’s on-the-scene reporting during the attacks: “I spoke with Congressman Ike Skelton—a Democrat from Missouri and a member of the Armed Services Committee—who said that just recently the Director of the CIA warned that there could be an attack—an imminent attack—on the United States of this nature. So this is not entirely unexpected.”

Listen to the audio clip:
http://www.thememoryhole.org/tenet-911.mp3

On September 10, 2001, San Francisco’s mayor was warned against flying to New York the next morning.


Around 10:00 PM on September 10--not exactly business hours--San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown was advised to use extreme caution if flying the next morning to New York City. Brown refuses to say exactly who gave him the prescient warning, citing only “my security people at the airport.” Source: San Francisco Chronicle.


On September 10, 2001, high-ranking Pentagon officials canceled travel plans for the morning of September 11.


From Newsweek: “On Sept. 10, Newsweek has learned, a group of top Pentagon officials suddenly canceled travel plans for the next morning, apparently because of security concerns.”


Attorney General John Ashcroft stopped flying on commercial aircraft in July 2001.

Attorneys General fly in commercial airplanes. Janet Reno did. John Ashcroft did. That is, he did up until July 2001. When asked why Ashcroft had suddenly started flying in leased private jets, an FBI spokesman said, “There was a threat assessment and there are guidelines. He is acting under the guidelines.” The FBI, the Justice Department, and Ashcroft himself all refused to say what the threat was. Source: CBS News.
Tara Leigh Wrote:Benjamin Chertoff, is Homeland Security Director Michael Chertoff's cousin.
Ha! Figures.
Tara Leigh Wrote:The architects who designed the WTC said the building could have survived multiple plane hits.
Frank A. Demartini, on-site construction manager for the World Trade Center, spoke of the resilience of the towers in an interview recorded on January 25, 2001:

"The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door -- this intense grid -- and the jet plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting".


Demartini, who had an office on the 88th floor of the North Tower, died on 9/11/2001 in the World Trade Center attack.

Click here to watch this 30 second video clip:
http://www.freepressinternational.com/wt...88888.html

And here's a letter from Kevin Ryan of Underwriters Laboratories to Frank Gayle of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST)
Quote:The collapse of the WTC

by Kevin Ryan
Underwriters Laboratories
Thursday, Nov 11, 2004

The following letter was sent today by Kevin Ryan of Underwriters Laboratories to Frank Gayle of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). Underwriters Laboratories is the company that certified the steel componets used in the constuction of the World Trade Center towers. The information in this letter is of great importance.


Dr. Gayle,

Having recently reviewed your team's report of 10/19/04, I felt the need to contact you directly.

As I'm sure you know, the company I work for certified the steel components used in the construction of the WTC buildings. In requesting information from both our CEO and Fire Protection business manager last year, I learned that they did not agree on the essential aspects of the story, except for one thing - that the samples we certified met all requirements. They suggested we all be patient and understand that UL was working with your team, and that tests would continue through this year. I'm aware of UL's attempts to help, including performing tests on models of the floor assemblies. But the results of these tests appear to indicate that the buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel.

There continues to be a number of "experts" making public claims about how the WTC buildings fell. One such person, Dr. Hyman Brown from the WTC construction crew, claims that the buildings collapsed due to fires at 2000F melting the steel (1). He states "What caused the building to collapse is the airplane fuel…burning at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The steel in that five-floor area melts." Additionally, the newspaper that quotes him says "Just-released preliminary findings from a National Institute of Standards and Technology study of the World Trade Center collapse support Brown’s theory."

We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications. Additionally, I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F (2). Why Dr. Brown would imply that 2000F would melt the high-grade steel used in those buildings makes no sense at all.

The results of your recently published metallurgical tests seem to clear things up (3), and support your team's August 2003 update as detailed by the Associated Press (4), in which you were ready to "rule out weak steel as a contributing factor in the collapse." The evaluation of paint deformation and spheroidization seem very straightforward, and you noted that the samples available were adequate for the investigation. Your comments suggest that the steel was probably exposed to temperatures of only about 500F (250C), which is what one might expect from a thermodynamic analysis of the situation.

However the summary of the new NIST report seems to ignore your findings, as it suggests that these low temperatures caused exposed bits of the building’s steel core to "soften and buckle." (5) Additionally this summary states that the perimeter columns softened, yet your findings make clear that "most perimeter panels (157 of 160) saw no temperature above 250C." To soften steel for the purposes of forging, normally temperatures need to be above1100C (6). However, this new summary report suggests that much lower temperatures were be able to not only soften the steel in a matter of minutes, but lead to rapid structural collapse.

This story just does not add up. If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers. That fact should be of great concern to all Americans. Alternatively, the contention that this steel did fail at temperatures around 250C suggests that the majority of deaths on 9/11 were due to a safety-related failure. That suggestion should be of great concern to my company.

There is no question that the events of 9/11 are the emotional driving force behind the War on Terror. And the issue of the WTC collapse is at the crux of the story of 9/11. My feeling is that your metallurgical tests are at the crux of the crux of the crux. Either you can make sense of what really happened to those buildings, and communicate this quickly, or we all face the same destruction and despair that come from global decisions based on disinformation and “chatter”.

Thanks for your efforts to determine what happened on that day. You may know that there are a number of other current and former government employees that have risked a great deal to help us to know the truth. I've copied one of these people on this message as a sign of respect and support. I believe your work could also be a nucleus of fact around which the truth, and thereby global peace and justice, can grow again. Please do what you can to quickly eliminate the confusion regarding the ability of jet fuel fires to soften or melt structural steel.

1. http://www.boulderweekly.com/archive/102...story.html 2. CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 61st edition, pg D-187 3. http://wtc.nist.gov/media/P3Mechanicalan...fSteel.pdf 4. http://www.voicesofsept11.org/archive/911ic/082703.php 5. http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NCSTACWTCStatu...04WEB2.pdf (pg 11) 6. http://www.forging.org/FIERF/pdf/ffaaMacSleyne.pdf

Kevin Ryan

Site Manager Environmental Health Laboratories A Division of Underwriters Laboratories

http://www.septembereleventh.org/newsarc...1-ryan.php
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