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Misguided Spending Will Only Take Us Deeper Into Depression
#21
Palladin Wrote:This is all just one unbelievable theft.

Ya mean kinda like borrowing ... without asking? Wink1
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#22
WmLambert Wrote:
quadrat Wrote:...The Iraq war also did wonders for the unemployment numbers.
There is no draft. The military was downsized, remember?
Was it? No wonder you don't win. Iraq took a couple of years to influence the unemployment numbers, but recently it finally did. What happened to the 16m drafted in WW2, afterwards? Got demobilized, I guess, and were unemployed again?
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#23
mr_yak Wrote:We did let some banks go belly up ...
Yes and after the run-on-the-bank on Bear Sterns, there was a sudden wind of panic that prompted to gov to improvize the start of the Big Fat Bail Out on a sunday evening. they were lucky to strike a deal before the markets open...

mr_yak Wrote:There are other alternatives besides nationalizing our financial system. One of them is reducing or eliminating capital gains on investments in financial institutions ... but that would have actually involved cutting the gov out of the deal ... so it's a no go.
I'm afraid not to understand: Where did you see a capital gains on investments in financial institutions recently?
And how would that help the economy?

mr_yak Wrote:Paulson's original plan was to put assets up for bid and allow private interests to swallow the whole, including the spoiled nasty bits ... but that didn't fly either.
Of it didn't. Toxic assets were realy toxic and no one would want them.
Paulson's orginial plan was to make a profitable operation.
And he foresaw that bying defaulting mortage protfolios and other subprime ladden packaged assets, would be lessprofitable than 8%-yield prefered convertibles.

mr_yak Wrote:....
Anyway, the downgraded expectations highlighted in my comment is not addressed nor is the question ... what if this doesn't work?
I answered this several times: There will be huge inflation and the US dollar will follow the same fate as that of the Zimbabwean Pound and americans will desperatly try to find a construction job in Mexico.

mr_yak Wrote:It may be time for the GOP to begin it's return from the desert.
You mean the Iraqi desert? Where the storms are?

mr_yak Wrote:I listened today to John Boehner say he didn't think the new stimulus package was going to work as advertised.
....
What else does he propose? Does he has a magic wand to stop this bloody recession (already called depression).

Ok, let's do the following:
1/ ask banks to give back bail out money now (who cares if they all go BK, none of our business)

2/ let's freeze gov spendings, and even lay off some governement workers because after all the crisis if for everybody

3/ let's reduce the FDIC fund and guarantee (poeple had to know better before if they lose everything)

4/ let's increase interrest rates (because there will be inflation)

etc

Very nice, but what would you actualy DO to fight the economic crisis?
(something that Obama has never proposed and preferably against one of his plan)
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#24
Fredledingue Wrote:
mr_yak Wrote:....
Anyway, the downgraded expectations highlighted in my comment is not addressed nor is the question ... what if this doesn't work?
I answered this several times: There will be huge inflation and the US dollar will follow the same fate as that of the Zimbabwean Pound and americans will desperatly try to find a construction job in Mexico.

What you're describing the logical outcome, but my question was "what if this doesn't work?" :lol:

Fredledingue Wrote:Ok, let's do the following:
1/ ask banks to give back bail out money now (who cares if they all go BK, none of our business)

2/ let's freeze gov spendings, and even lay off some governement workers because after all the crisis if for everybody

3/ let's reduce the FDIC fund and guarantee (poeple had to know better before if they lose everything)

4/ let's increase interrest rates (because there will be inflation)

1. The money is in locked away vaults. This will require mining equipment or even more drastic ... forensic accountants. Shock

2. Federal jobs are even more secure than the money in #1. This will require an order of magnitude more mining equipment ... and quite possibly lots of riot gear.

3. This involves rolling back FDR ... this is the equivalent to tunneling to the center of the earth! ... I'm not sure there's that much mining equipment on the planet.

4. This is easy ... because it's already occurring.

Hey, one out of four ain't bad ... any other suggestions? :lol:
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#25
mr_yak Wrote:2. Federal jobs are even more secure than the money in #1. This will require an order of magnitude more mining equipment ... and quite possibly lots of riot gear.

God isn't that the truth. The only way to get rid of a bad federal employee is to promote them.
As Gary Lloyd said, "When the government’s boot is on your throat, whether it is a left boot or a right boot is of no consequence."
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#26
Quote:but my question was "what if this doesn't work?"

McCain for president in early elections? Or Bush himself perhaps?
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#27
Fredledingue Wrote:
Quote:but my question was "what if this doesn't work?"

McCain for president in early elections? Or Bush himself perhaps?

Sounds a bit like wishful thinking ... on your part. :lol:
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#28
I guess you have realised, meanwhile, that all economic success since Reagan has been specious prosperity. The stockmarkets are back on the level of the eighties, many enterprises in worse conditions than they were back then. Since the start of Reagan's deregulation, values have been counted that never existed in reality, and they kept ballooning up. As the values of your 401K, other deposits in stocks, houses etc. Regard the pseudo value they possessed for years as your share of the 'trickling down' Reagan and disciples such as WmLambert promised you for indulging the precious few very wealthy ones, their wealth stolen from you is still real.
Well, count your losses from the lie of the benefits the unregulated free market capitalism would have for you, but hopefully, you won't make the same mistake again. :lol:
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#29
quadrat,

To be fair...
We were in a situation where values have been counted that never existed in reality for some companies.
Now values have been DIScounted that always existed, for EVERYBODY.
That's where the problem is: No one want to lend money because evryone think everybody is broke or a crook.
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#30
Fredledingue Wrote:That's where the problem is: No one want to lend money because evryone think everybody is broke or a crook.

On the contrary ... the U.S. government is passing out money at an exponential pace ... and being 'broke' or a 'crook' actually improves your eligibility to get these valuable cash prizes! Honest, successful buisnesses need not apply.

... only a few months ago we would have called people like Geithner and Daschle crooks for not paying income tax. In Geithner's case about $30K .. in Daschle's case a whopping $130K ... but now they're considered 'indispensable' to the recovery ... so being a crook actually boosts your credentials in Obamaville. ... get with the program fred ... being broke or a crook is now a patriotic duty!
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#31
I think we're broke,but,we haven't figured it out yet,the party is still going on. Pass that bong.
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#32
Neither the D's or the R's have figured out that we are broke. Nor has California nor NY City figured out that they are broke. Probably a hard landing ahead.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#33
Uncle Sam Can't Count: A History of Failed Government Investments, from Beaver Pelts to Green Energy
Drawing on examples from the nation's past and present, Uncle Sam Can't Count provides a thorough economic history of why the federal government cannot -- and should not -- pick winners and losers in the private sector. Burt and Anita Folsom argue that government subsidies have failed dismally from the days of George Washington through World War II to today. Draining the Treasury of cash, they impede economic growth and hurt the very companies receiving aid. As the authors detail, federal officials don't have the same abilities or incentives as entrepreneurs. In addition, federal control always equals political control of some kind. What is best for politicians is not often what works in the marketplace. Politicians want to win votes, and they can do so by giving targeted CEOs benefits while dispersing costs to others.


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#34
Love that image Folsom made of Native Americans wearing Chinese Mandarin dresses and playing Jews' harps around the campfire, because the government-sponsored trading companies didn't need to sell the Indians what they wanted and offered what they thought could change the culture. John Jacob Astor fought the government over this and won. He put his agents among the tribes and gave them what they wanted. The subsidized government traders sought Congressional fees and penalties be applied against Astor, but his success stopped the British competition and Congress stopped the fur trade subsidies.

The most interesting thing to me about Folsom's presentation here, is that these simple truths are not taught in schools.

The condensed and printed version of this can be found Here.

Anita's presentation of The Wright Flyer is also never taught. After 5 years of proof of their machine, the U.S. Department of War ignored them, and the Wrights went to France to get noticed.

Evidence is clear, the great entrepreneurs were successful, but government subsidies fail. The Wright Brothers were successful in spite of government efforts to push the Langley aircraft with subsidies.
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