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Growing hot spot at the Turkish/Iraqi border
#1
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After Turkish Special Forces engaged , killed 21 PKK terrorist and captured large amounts of explosives at the Turkish/Iraqi border, Turkey is making statements that terrorist crossing Iraqi border will be chased and followed into Iraq. General Staff leader Full General İlker Başbuğ has stated that following these terrorist into Iraq is the right of self defense for Turkey, and Turkish interests will override the Iraqi Government's wishes.

İlker Başbuğ also stated that USA has promised to capture and hand over the PKK terrorist to Turkey. However, Ilker also stated that Turkey can't expect much help from USA since they are tied up with other terrorism incidents in Iraq.
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#2
Yeah, looks like they made a deal.

MENL:

Quote:ANKARA [MENL] -- The United States was said to have supported Turkey's military operations against the Kurdish insurgency.

Turkey's media have quoted members of the Bush administration as encouraging Ankara's current offensive against the Kurdish Workers Party along the border with Iraq. But the U.S. officials did not endorse a Turkish incursion in northern Iraq, where PKK bases were located.

The semi-official Anatolia news agency reported that the United States has supported Ankara's drive against the PKK within Turkish territory. A U.S. official was reported as saying that the PKK was a terrorist group.

"In the current situation Turkey has the right to take measures to prevent itself from being subjected to a terror campaign," the U.S. official was quoted as saying. "And we have no objection on that."

In other words, the US will support anti-PKK operations for as long as Turkey does not invade.
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#3
It's not the Iraqi government Turkey has to be concerned about. The US will not tolerate supposed "hot pursuit" entry of Turkish forces into Iraq. General Myers made this very clear in a recent discussion with the Turks.

The resurgence of the PKK is directly attributable to the Turkish government refusal to implement in reality the paper changes they've made in a gesture towards the EU in improving basic rights for the Kurdish minority. With Ocalan in prison, and the PKK in pieces, Turkey passed up the golden opportunity to exploit the situation and put an end to instability in the southeast. Instead, it remains poverty stricken and even more corrupt than the rest of the country. Which is saying quite a bit. Now they're making noises about coming in and destabilizing one of the relatively calm and stable areas in Iraq. It ain't gonna happen.
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#4
I would not call Northern Iraq the most peaceful region of the Iraq while Kurdish terrorist organizations like PKK and Ansar al-Islam have their headquarters there and continue to organize attacks against Turkey and other parts of Iraq. It is estimated that half of the Iraqis and Allied troops killed in Iraq are due to terrorist acts by Ansar al-Islam.

As I was posting this message, I learned that 11 more PKK infiltrators from Iraq has been killed in the border by the town of Sirnak, Turkey. Large amount of C4 explosives were found among the bodies.
-----------------------------------------
By UNITED PRESS INTERNATIONAL
Published February 18, 2005


COPENHAGEN, Denmark -- Europe is emerging as one of the most fertile recruiting grounds for radical Islamists bent on terrorism, western authorities say.

Intelligence officials report an increasing number of recruits from Sweden to Italy are making their way to Iraq under the auspices of Ansar al-Islam, a once-obscure Kurdish group that has evolved into a global network of jihadists, the Washington Post said Friday.


Typical Ansar recruits are young Muslim men of Middle Eastern descent living in Europe. European authorities say that recent Ansar activity includes the following:

-- One of Ansar's top commanders in Iraq, Abu Mohammed Lubnani, once operated as an armed robber in Denmark;

-- Swedish police arrested four Ansar members for allegedly helping to plan twin bombings that killed more than 100 people on Feb. 1, 2004, in the Iraqi city of Irbil; and

-- German police said they broke up a hastily arranged plot by three Ansar members to attack interim Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi during a visit to Berlin.

"Ansar is very good -- a leading power -- in terms of mobilizing followers to fight the Americans in Iraq," said Guenther Beckstein, interior minister for the German state of Bavaria.
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#5
Quote:It is estimated that half of the Iraqis and Allied troops killed in Iraq are due to terrorist acts by Ansar al-Islam.
What is the source of your "estimate"? The articles you quote consist of conjecture and second hand info - and none of them state the "50%" mark you claim.

Because that ratio is utter and complete BS. At this point, there is no single insurgent/terrorist grouping that can claim credit for 50% or better of coalition/Iraqi casualties. The fight is much more complex than that.

Edit to add:

....this must drive the Turks crazy: Kurdistan Airlines

[Image: froke_4.gif]

Not much yet, twice weekly flights from Dubai to Irbil and back. But the Turks really get wrapped around the axle over any use of the word Kurdistan. And in the context of an airline, I do not doubt that the Grey Wolves and other virulent Turkish ethno-nationalists are already plotting ways to bring it down.
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#6
Ansar has no BASE in Iraq,that ended in 2003 when we invaded.

I personally think the terrorist nuts are taking a broader control of the resistance,but they have no base safe from coalition retribution.

Michael Yon has a blog,he lives in Iraq with various US forces from north to south,his position is that Kurdistan is both remarkably peaceful and prosperous and positive to Americans relative to the Arab side.

If the PKK are operating out of Iraq,I have no use for them and would encourage the Iraqi Kurds to oust them,but Turkey won't be invading Iraq as long as we're there,Jed's right. It's not an easy chore to invade over mountains against a decent foe,it is my guess just the Iraqi Peshmerga armed with TOW's, Javelins,mortars, artillery and Stingers could keep the Turks out of Kurdistan.

The hard fact is the Kurds are a headache for Turkey,they've been at it with Turkey for years and years and Turkey likes to use the excuse of Iraq as the reason they are failing to quell Kurdish radicalism.

If Iraq disappeared tonight,PKK would still be killing Turks. and vice versa.

My advice to Turks is be honest. I disagree that the PKK is caused by Turk oppression,because terrorism never has any legitimacy anywhere with me,but if they stick to fighting the Turk Army only for independence,then I would not say they are terrorists. The PKK is a Marxist organization,this is why I do not blame Turkey for them.

If a non Marxist Kurd force was stood up demanding independence,then I might agree with Jed's view here.
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#7
Elements of Ansar do still operate out of the mountains of northern Iraq. However, they are nowhere near as active operationally as implied above, and their targets to date seem to be primarily affiliated with the PUK.

Pal - the PKK's roots are more technically Maoist communism. However, that aspect takes a pale second next to simple nationalism.

No matter how you feel about terrorism; it does have roots, based in real socio-political problems. We can kill and capture bombers and shooters all day long and, although it will prevent and mitigate some attacks, it will not solve the problem.

With a nationalist insurgency that uses terror tactics - such as the PKK - the roots are far more clear, easily defined, and more easily addressed than the root issues of a dispersed multinational terror group such as Al-Qa'ida and its imitators that seem to strike out at Western (and western-influenced) targets in general for a broad canvas of perceived ills suffered by their concept of Islam. In the latter case, although we are addresssing elements of the perceived wrongs, our strongest defense is through rolling up mid-level and higher terror infrastructure....the trainers, planners and ideologues that drive the fight.

As I stated earlier, Turkey did capture and imprison the key individual that drove the PKK - Abdullah Ocalan. However, in their ethno-nationalist arrogance, they failed to effectively follow up on that capture and thus now we see the emerging stages of a new Kurdish insurgency.

Still Critical - Prospects in 2005 for Internally Displaced Kurds in Turkey
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#8
Jed,

The thing with me is,I have sympathy for anyone who desires political independence. I still think the US south had every right to seperate from the US north in 1862. I'm glad we failed,but we had the right to be seperate without a war effort,IMO.

I'm a fan of Kurds in Iraq.

The problem I have with the Kurds in Turkey is terrorism. It devalues whatever legitimacy they could have. I feel the same with Palestinian Arabs,I will never support them having anything rewarded due to their terrorism.


So far as the real everyday life of a Kurd in Turkey,you know way more than I do. But,no one had it worse than black people in America from 1650 to 1954 and they never resorted to this mindless hateful terrorism.
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#9
Excuse my ignorance, but is part of the problem that the Kurds have an expansionist attitude? I can understand the desire of the the Kurds in southern Turkey to create an independent state prior to the Iraq War. But now that they have the potential opportunity to form an independent nation in northern Iraq, is the threat of succession in southern Turkey still there?
"Most people just want tomorrow to look pretty much like today." - Terry Pratchett
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#10
They are actually discussing the PKK, which has been fighting Turkey for many years. Also they are Marxist oriented and thus get little help from just about anyone now, short of Syria and perhaps like minded kooks. I could be wrong on this one, because I don't keep up with the PKK.

Perhaps someone else know more.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
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#11
Quote:Also they are Marxist oriented and thus get little help from just about anyone now, short of Syria and perhaps like minded kooks

I don't think Syria helps them now (they did at one point).

And I'll be very surprised if they don't get some support from the "mainstream" Kurdish parties. Somehow PKK did get back its strength recently...

The problem is that "expansionism" and "self-determination" are really almost the same thing....
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#12
Syria did render significant assistance to the PKK in its heyday. Ocalan had a house in Damascus, and they were provided with training facilities under Syrian control in the Bekaa valley in Lebanon. All that came to a screeching halt when Turkey first threatened to cut off most of their water supply, and then invade. Shortly after Ocalan was forced to leave Syria he was captured. The newly active remnants of the PKK do not receive any active assistance from Syria.
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#13
I don't recall reading that the Kurds of Iraq,Iran or Syria ever used terrorism to gain independence,but for whatever reason,the PKK in Turkey does.

The "Multi-culturalism" of Turkey is probably non exitstant and I'm sure Kurds have legit beefs,but murdering someones mother on a train don't get it with me,so I remain steadfast in support of Turkey to crush the PKK myself.

Having said that,I pretty much can't stand Turkey anymore,I simply stand on my anti terrorism principles here. It would be fine with me if the USA didn't even keep an embassy in Turkey anymore.
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#14
Quote:I don't recall reading that the Kurds of Iraq,Iran or Syria ever used terrorism to gain independence,but for whatever reason,the PKK in Turkey does.

1. There were reports about PKK in Iran last week.
2. Are we sure that "terrorism" is an appropriate term for PKK in Turkey?
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#15
MV,

When I use the term,I mean it literally as follows

"Murdering or threatening to murder humans to achieve a political goal".

If the PKK attacks Turk soldiers,it is legitimate if all they want is independence. I say they have the same right to independence as we did from the UK,but not if they murder innocents to achieve it.

How much of their efforts are terrorism? Don't have a clue. I know some is,so I don't have any use for them. I would oppose any of their efforts even minus terrorism simply because this is a Marxist outfit,even though Jed says it's superficial only.

But,I do not respect Turkey,I simply am not going to pile on them when I see their foe as terrorist or Marxist oriented.
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#16
Quote: How much of their efforts are terrorism? Don't have a clue. I know some is,so I don't have any use for them.

I don't know either, and thus the question.

If what we see as terrorism (attacking "humans" rather than soldiers) was a fairly small part of and was not a deliberate policy, it is a rather different situation. (There are things like collateral damage, and any rebel group attracts criminal elements with their own agenda).
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#17
MV,

Traditionally,I had thought the PKK was mostly attacking Turk soldiers or Police. However,there was a blast a few days back at a Turk tourist sight. Maybe that was Islamists? If they offer combat to the Army,then I do not view them as terrorists at all.

More men than Arab terrorists murdering their own people in Iraq.
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#18
The main targets of PKK were Kurdish doctors, teachers, shopkeepers, businessmen, village guards, etc. Out of approximately 34,000 dead during the reign of PKK terrorism about 31,000 of these dead were Kurdish people who were trying to improve the lives of their kin.
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#19
If that is a fact,then it lends support to my contention that REGARDLESS of any Turk wrongs,the goals of THIS Kurdish group is invalid. Americans wronged African slaves for centuries and wronged free blacks for a century basically and I regret it.

However,I would kill every black American TONIGHT if they went off on a mass murdering spree like terrorists do.

There is never ,under the sun,a valid reason for 1 human to murder another human he does not know to achieve a political goal.

Declaring independence and fighting the Army,I accept that,but if you have to slaughter your own side to intimidate them into compliance as we see in Afghanistan and Iraq,NO,it's wrong.

I saw this morning where the Iraqi President Zebari made a comment about "US troops are already authorized to arrest any PKK". The thing is,we don't really have a serious presence in the mountainous regions,because the Kurds are not fighting Americans or the central government. Kirkuk and Mosul is about as far as we have any one to my knowledge.
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#20
Quote:The main targets of PKK were Kurdish doctors, teachers, shopkeepers, businessmen, village guards, etc. Out of approximately 34,000 dead during the reign of PKK terrorism about 31,000 of these dead were Kurdish people who were trying to improve the lives of their kin.
Partially correct, Kamil. As I stated before, the PKK was a Maoist group, like the VC and Sendero Luminoso (much of that ideology is gone from the remnants that are active today). Part of the supposed strategy of such Maoist groups is the vicious killings of those of their own people who support/work for the state they are fighting against. So, in their eyes, teachers, village guards, postal workers, city admin employees become legitimate targets. But they also conduct conventional guerrilla ops against the Turkish military - as did the VC in Vietnam.

Of those supposed 31,000 civilians (I see your numbers are the result of Turkish government interpretation) many were killed by the Turkish military. The hard fact is that the Turkish military also summarily killed many Kurdish civilians who they suspected of supporting the PKK. In the mid '90s, under Ciller's government, the Turkish military and security services created death squads. They were very similar to the worst of those in Latin America in the late '70s/early '80s, to attack supporters and cadre infrastructure of the PKK. And they also created over one million internally displaced persons as they forcibly evacuated thousands of villages in a scorched earth campaign to deny the PKK any support infrastructure.

Still Critical - Prospects in 2005 for Internally Displaced Kurds in Turkey

Kamil, I also recommend you read Memed'in Kitabi - Guneydogu'da Savasmis Askerler Anlatiyor by Nadire Mater. It consists of interviews that Mater conducted of soldiers who had served in combat in the southeast. Banned in Turkey when it was first published, it is now readily available.
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