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As Pakistan goes, so goes the middle east
#1
Mr 10 percent has been elected. Pakistan shows annoyance with US bombing and incursions into Al-Quaeda strongholds. Civil unrest seems just below the surface. Terrorists are becoming more active, as the next link shows:
Bloodshed of desperation becomes the real threat to Pakistan

Will the military cooperate with the civil authorities to try to put a lid on terrorism?
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#2
Depends on what percentage he can get out of the deal.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#3
I don't know,but here's a good series by Michael Yon on a British unit in Afghanistan. No reporter has offered more facts than Michael.

This is part III,go back and start at I for the whole picture. Michael is now not embedded,he says it is extremely dangerous,but he cannot get the facts enough as an embed:

HERE
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#4
Palladin Wrote:I don't know,but here's a good series by Michael Yon on a British unit in Afghanistan. No reporter has offered more facts than Michael.

This is part III,go back and start at I for the whole picture. Michael is now not embedded,he says it is extremely dangerous,but he cannot get the facts enough as an embed:

HERE

Just like Michael stated, it is just little things that can determine a friend from a foe. And compensation is one of them. If you treat someone like they deserve little, you will get little from them in return, other than a sniper's bullet.

His example of the two units in Iraq, one successful, the other not, shows this. What the authorities make up for in the short run is more than lost in the long run, in the form of dead, or mained soldiers, or destroyed property/equipment. And let's not forget the other aspect: good will.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#5
Hard to argue with this guy's logic:


HERE
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#6
Palladin Wrote:Hard to argue with this guy's logic:


HERE

Somehow, I doubt the ability in the long run.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#7
A friend of mine who is from india but has extensive experience throughout the middle east and whose father is a war correspondent in the middle east said that the Paki counterintelligence agency runs that country. The president is a puppet. And if they wanted to, they could root out Al quaeda tomorrow. So if this is true then it is clear they are postioning for something. They want something in return and as of yet are not getting it. But that is all speculation.
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#8
TheMan Wrote:A friend of mine who is from india but has extensive experience throughout the middle east and whose father is a war correspondent in the middle east said that the Paki counterintelligence agency runs that country. The president is a puppet. And if they wanted to, they could root out Al quaeda tomorrow. So if this is true then it is clear they are postioning for something. They want something in return and as of yet are not getting it. But that is all speculation.

That makes sense to me. However, the US has given Pakistan billions of dollars, and evidently Pakistan cannot account for where a great amount of that $ has gone. So, if Pakistan wants the US to cross its palm with gold again, perhaps the US should do some serious horse trading and make sure that a larger percent of the new money goes where we want it.

I have the same doubts as JohnL about whether the Pakistanis can manage to do what they claim, even if we "come across". What guarantees would they give? Should there be benchmarks?
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#9
Gents,

The Indians naturally see it that way. I would take their view with a grain of understanding their subjectivity,just as we are subjective relating to our enemies at times.

The ISI NO DOUBT has assisted jihad against India,so naturally the Indians see it as jihad INC. No doubt it has at times operated counter to our goals in Afghanistan and Pakistan,but to even imagine the ISI can shut down jihad like a light switch is wishful thinking.

It needs more reforming,there are jihadis within it,but it is not Taliban central and it is no more capable of that feat than our CIA is of 99% of the feats the people across the globe assign it.

Now,to the question can Pakistan handle this ? The man said IF we give him intell,he will act on it. Since anyone with a brain can see that our incursions clearly would bring negative societal reactions,let's try and see.

If he flops or fails,we go back to incursions and if need be have a limited war with Pakistan's Army,but it makes no logic not to take him up on the offer.
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#10
The only reason I lend any credence to theory that the Paki CIA is running the country is the behaviour of Musharaf. When he complies with the US it is always with a great deal of fear and reluctance. When he doesn't, then things are fine at home and he just has to fear sanctions from the US. Either way it seemed to me he was more of a prisoner than an executive.
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#11
TheMan Wrote:The only reason I lend any credence to theory that the Paki CIA is running the country is the behaviour of Musharaf. When he complies with the US it is always with a great deal of fear and reluctance. When he doesn't, then things are fine at home and he just has to fear sanctions from the US. Either way it seemed to me he was more of a prisoner than an executive.

I agree. The ISI has Huge powers within the Pakistan government.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#12
Man,

I think any Pakistani leader has a lot more problems than the ISI. He has the people of Pakistan.

They're Muslims,we're at war with Muslims.

We say the nuts,but it isn't unreasonable that most of them see it otherwise,even if what we say is literally accurate.

Place yourselves in their shoes,imagine a huge Muslim state was at war with a Mormon group who while using tactics you disagreed with,represented the end goals your faith taught you. Add in Mormon teaching has a jihad concept to make this more realistic,add in as well normal paranoia and distrust of the powerful.
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#13
Palladin Wrote:Man,

I think any Pakistani leader has a lot more problems than the ISI. He has the people of Pakistan.

They're Muslims,we're at war with Muslims.

We say the nuts,but it isn't unreasonable that most of them see it otherwise,even if what we say is literally accurate.

Place yourselves in their shoes,imagine a huge Muslim state was at war with a Mormon group who while using tactics you disagreed with,represented the end goals your faith taught you. Add in Mormon teaching has a jihad concept to make this more realistic,add in as well normal paranoia and distrust of the powerful.

No religion in America has been as persecuted as the Mormons. We were run out of New york, Kirtland, Ohio; Nauvoo, Illlinois; Jackson County, Missouri (Missouri Governour Boggs even issued an extermination order) then we landed in Utah where the Feds sent an Army to quell the supposed mormon uprising. You want to know why I hate the government and distrust them, guess. I can well empathize with any one who feels their faith is being persecuted.

We are not at war with islam we are at war with idiots who misuse islam.

Either way my only point is that I have always felt when watching Musharaf that he was impotent, and someone else was pulling the strings. How many military dictators are powerless? He seemed like it to me. So when I heard the ISI is the real powerhouse in Pakistan (my friend had specific examples to back this up that I have long since forgotten) it made sense to me in that it explained his behaviour.

I don't know if this is true but for me it seems to make sense.
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#14
Man,

My point was to them it is not quite as black and white as it is to us,that's all.
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#15
John L Wrote:
Palladin Wrote:Hard to argue with this guy's logic:


HERE

Somehow, I doubt the ability in the long run.
----------------------------------

Well...

We will see. The Pakistani's themselves have small chances of really rooting out Al Qaeda in their own country since Al Qaeda and extremists are so deeply involved with madrasah's and other religious power centres in Pakistan.

And Mr 10% knows that. Like all other Pakistani top politicials he is carrying out a balancing act. Now he is saying that he cares for Pakistani sovereignity and such a statement might gain some support from Pakistani tribesmen along the border to Afghanistan.

Well, at the end maybe Mr 10% is better for US interests than what Musharraf was...

/track_snake
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