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The problem - and the solution
#1
I'm beginning to think more and more that the problem is not just the extreme Islamacists - but the entire Muslim faith. As sad as it is, there are no Muslim voices who have admitted Israel has a right to exist. Two-and-a half generations of Palestinians have grown up without Israel existing on any map, nor teach the legal and historical happenings factually.

Likewise, no Muslim voices have been raised condemning Terrorists.

In the 50 years that Islam spread across two continents, it was done by the sword and the flame. Entire villages were wiped out - man, woman, child, and dog unless they converted to Islam. There never was any philosophical seachange where devout questors for truth freely chose to become Muslim.

In today's times, the exact same strategy seems to be in play. And although it worked in Kosovo and other savaged nations - it just can't win against the West's free enterprise system. Yes there are still useful idiots with feel-good mentalities who will open the door, but they can't win.

Islam must change to survive. Its Imams must explain it's not really a change, just the real faith being explained rightly. But change it is. In order for it to continue, it must tolerate other faiths.
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#2
Turkey a Muslim country was one of the first countries to recognize Israel.

If I'm not mistaken also all the Central Asian Muslim countries, Pakistan and Egypt also recognize Israel.

Turkey's past and present regimes and news media have always condemned terrorist attacks in any country including in Beslan Russia, New York, and most recently in London, and Egypt.

By the way about 25 Turks lost their lives in New York, 3 in London and several more in Egypt.

On the other hand when Armenian Terrorist organization Asala was targeting Turkish Diplomats and civilians almost all the European nations where completely ignoring the incidents. First time Asala was considered to be added to the terrorist list was after some Europeans got killed by them at Turkish Airline's counter at the Paris Airport.
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#3
I don't think the tit for tat can add up here as equal,but Kamil is right on the Armenian terror movement,although as I recall the USA very much opposed it

Somewhat,I agree with William,Kamil. While your rebuttal is good and you named states that do recognize Israel's right to exist,showing William's statement as over wrought,his central point has AT LEAST some validity.

Islam,in any form,relies on the Koran as it's basis,regardless if you're Sufi or wahabbi or whatever else. Within the Koran there are statements that simply cannot be ignored as POTENTIAL MOTIVATION for hatred,disgust and violence against Jews,infidels,pagans or Christians.

The fact is Sufi Islam DOES ignore them. But,a wahbbi,salafi or deobandi takes them literally.

What is a non Muslim to think,is the violence part of Islam or only the radicals?

It's not a ridiculous question and yet,Islam is not going anywhere,so we want only to war on radical Islam. My view is the vicitms of the radical strains are mostly Muslims,so we have to reach the point where we work together across the spectrum to knock down the radicals.

Right now,IMO,most all Muslims strongly dislike the USA. There has to be a day when they dislike the wahabbi among them worse than us or this will eventually become a real war against Islam,because unlike Europe,Americans aren't anywhere near being ready to commit suicide to avoid this fight,IMO.

My view is that eventually,slowly,the average Muslim will lose some of the stupid conspiracy views about America and turn their energy against the radicals that will only take them back to Taliban rule. The more success the terrorists have tactically,ODDLY ENOUGH,the more success we will have winning the hearts and minds of normal Muslims,IMO. As an example,I doubt the average Algerian Sunni Muslim cares a whit about the "great satan" America,they've had a decade of slaughter at the hands of the nuts.
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#4
OK,here is an opinion,I'm sure it is minority opinion within Islam,that pretty much accepts responsibility of Islam for the radicals.

There are things within the Koran that easly are used AND believed to encourage violence. That is self evident. I've had Muslims retort that so does the Bible. They post Scripture concerning slaying the infidels. Problem is,it is only the infidels invading Israel AND it is sort of self evident that NO Christian pastor can recruit Christians to go out and murder unknown innocent people based on any of those passages in 2005,nowhere on earth can they.

until recently,I accepted that Eric Rudolph was,but we find out he is not a Christian recently in his own letters to his mother.

http//www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16034307%5E7583,00.html
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#5
I agree with both of you - but still feel the facts are what they are. I recently heard a report that said only 5% to 10% of Muslims believe in their own faith, and that the rest act as if they do, only because it is obligatory.

What I took notice of from that discussion was that Islam grew rapidly over a 50-year period - and the chief motivation of that growth was the sword and the flame. The new Islam religion was close enough to their old one that most converts could accept it - especially when the penalty for not accepting it, publicly with your neighbors was to have your entire village set on fire, after every man, woman, child, and animal had been killed with the sword.

To my understanding, most religions work by winning the mind and hearts of converts, not by terrorism.
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#6
Moslems believing in their religion.

I think a biggest problem with current Moslem terrorism wave is lack of education and isolation. Many Moslem religion followers believe and accept without questioning whatever some misguided imams tell them.

If some of these terrorists had some common sense and at least questioned the validity of the tales they hear they might decide to take different kind of action.

I cannot read Arabic. Therefore, I have read Turkish Version of the Koran in the past, and our community Imam is a good friend of our family. What I have gathered from these two experiences is that Koran like Bible permits killing only in the self defense of your country.
However, some loop holes could be developed and these believes could be modified. For example I have read that Turkish troops involvement in Korea raised some questions in the early 1950's in Turkey. Troops were going to far away lands to fight and were not directly defending their country, would fallen soldiers be martyrs?
The answer was that Communism was an international war, and if not defended against now, soon it will be at the borders of Turkey (which was already there). In my opinion these conclusions by religious leaders were fine and soldiers felt much more comfortable about their mission.

However, some imam could use similar logic to recruit terrorists. This is where education and common sense would come to play, and would prevent somebody accepting all tales as the truth.
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#7
Kamil,

I will say this and know it to be true. IN MY form of reformed Christianity,NO pastor anywhere of any denomination could preach hatred and murder as a way to God's love and protection and have more then 1 nutcase follower.

They can preach it,but they will have empty Churches BECAUSE in my form of Christianity,we make our pastor "PROVE IT",in other words show us the verses in Scripture backing up your claims. I actually think other Christian Churches as well would not accept that tripe.

I guess what William's frustration and mine is,even you,a super nice guy,feel IF your Imam had been a jerk,maybe he could have caused you to do evil? That just cannot happen with Christianity now days,though it did a millenia ago.
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#8
You have to remember that up to 30% of Turkey follow Alewi faith, and high percentage of Sunni's in Turkey have been influenced heavily by Alewi believes.
One of the believes of Alewi is questioning any demands put on you, even if this demand was supposedly coming from God. After that scientific explanation and reasons are requested, followed by questioning your own common-sense before accepting anything as facts.

It is very unlikely that any Imam or anybody else could make me do something that goes against my own principles, and common sense.

However, some people would follow what Imam or preacher tells them. I don't see this as a problem with religion, but the caliber of people who follow that religion.

Not that long time ago some Christians were as gullible as some Moslems are today in accepting what their religious leaders told them.
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#9
(Don't want to get into this discussion seriously but only to register a general agreement with Kamil on the different nature of Turkish Islam. The origins are different; the Ottoman empire in many ways was a model multicultural state.

Separately, the issue came up here.).
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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