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Iran Report Contradicts Past Bush Position?
#1
Where did our POTUS get all his information about Iran's nuclear program if it's been on hold since 2003 according to his info sources? Not that I think we know either way,we do not know,but where was Bush being informed from? From his kindergarten teacher?




HERE
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#2
There has been much brouhaha about Iran's coming nuclear weapons for some time now. I am not sure that "our POTUS" is responsible for all of it. And I am not sure that this article from the BBC is the definitive word on the situation. Perhaps corroboration is required.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#3
JT,

Come on,Bush's admin. has vigorously pursued the idea to us that Iran is trying to develop nukes. Most Americans believe they are,myself,I do not know,but I never felt we knew as we don't seem to know di.ck about anything outside our borders. If we knew nothing about Iraq and we did not,we know nothing about Iran,that makes common sense to me.

Bush has painted a picture that we do know and while I don't hold him responsible for the Iraq WMD mistake,it now appears he never had any info indicating Iran is actively nuking up. This man is the oddest POTUS in my lifetime.

He has done some good and some bad,but I trust him less than I did Carter or Clinton at this point.

If this is just the way he uses allegedly independent intell agency information to fit his tactical changes at any given time vis a vis Iran(carrot&stick),fine,then let's agree our intell services are laregly propaganda arms and not intell agencies,which I have long suspected was truth anyway.

I suggest then we defund all of them,lie about that as well so the idiots of the globe can keep thinking the CIA really has merit against them.
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#4
Seems like this clinches it as "someone else's" problem.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#5
Palladin, I do not dispute that Bush's administration has been thumping on this drum for a while. But you have to explain that his administration has been the only one thumping on this drum.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#6
JT,

No,I agree many see Iran as we saw Iraq in 2003 going for the WMD. But,assuming this report is accurate,we have no knowledge they are and Bush was the leader of the effort,he's the POTUS.

I'm a cynic,but I don't believe any POTUS can cause 16 seperate agencies to lie and minimize the potential danger to the nation of an alleged "axis of evil" enemy state if they really had info otherwise,so based on that logic,I have to believe we have actually had knowledge to the opposite effect of what Bush has led us to believe.

As I stated earlier,this POTUS is the absolute weirdest of all men in my lifetime to be in the office. Not the worst,but the oddest. No evidence whatsoever to believe Iran is nuking up,evidence to the contrary since 03 and he has spent since 2003 warning us about Iran's nukes.

WHY GEORGE? Get off the BUD!

What we do not need is intell on Iran's terror support,that is self evident with the Hezzbollah and the evidence we can document inside Iraq with Sadr's bunch of Iran's work for terrorism,if Bush feels he needs to whack Tehran,have at it,but don't be telling me stories like I'm as naive as my wife,I ain't.
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#7
Really interesting stuff.

With this report, Iran is absolved of all sins for years. Attacking Iran is no longer possible politically; Bush' credibility took another hit, and collateral damage is wide, consider, for example, Sarkozy.

It reminds me of 1984... One day the hero's county is fighting Eastasia in alliance with Eurasia...then it reverses, no reasons given or needed.

Did Bush read the book and decided to go Orwellian, since Bringing-Freedom got stale?

If so, thank Allah that Bush does not read too many books.

NUTS
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#8
I find the entire thing totally bizarre. Don't know what to believe any more. Anyway, I know how inept our intelligence system is, so nothing surprises me.

There is something else going on here, that has nothing directly to do with this, and is being stirred into the equation.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#9
Typically inept bureaucracies excel in CYA....not this time.
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#10
mv Wrote:Really interesting stuff.

With this report, Iran is absolved of all sins for years. Attacking Iran is no longer possible politically; Bush' credibility took another hit, and collateral damage is wide, consider, for example, Sarkozy.

It reminds me of 1984... One day the hero's county is fighting Eastasia in alliance with Eurasia...then it reverses, no reasons given or needed.

Did Bush read the book and decided to go Orwellian, since Bringing-Freedom got stale?

If so, thank Allah that Bush does not read too many books.

NUTS
Not bad, you actually are in the middle of an Orwellian state. Go on, deny it. :lol:

Palladin,
the UN nuclear watchdog denied that Iran was developing nukes all along, did you never care about their reports? What makes you think that
Quote:What we do not need is intell on Iran's terror support,that is self evident with the Hezzbollah and the evidence we can document inside Iraq with Sadr's bunch of Iran's work for terrorism,if Bush feels he needs to whack Tehran,have at it,but don't be telling me stories like I'm as naive as my wife,I ain't.
Iran is "supporting terrorists" but the wish to find a reason to attack them? The same quality intelligence as in the case of Persian nukes? I'm afraid you just scratched the surface of lies your administration makes up all the time.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#11
John L Wrote:I find the entire thing totally bizarre. Don't know what to believe any more. Anyway, I know how inept our intelligence system is, so nothing surprises me.

There is something else going on here, that has nothing directly to do with this, and is being stirred into the equation.
------------------------
Well...

If you listened to the other information available on Iran and Iraq, you could from open sources find:

1. that Iran maybe not had a program aiming at getting nukes for military purpose but had a program aimed at getting nuclear energy for civilian use but where at least parts of that could become used in military purposes.

2. that Iraq did not possess any WMD at the time of the US-led invasion but that they very probably had WMD:s before but got rid of them or destroyed them some time between 1995 and 2000.

/track_snake
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#12
Well,

ASAIK, NIE's were consistently wrong on every nuclear program/WMD issue. Among the memorable failures are the failure to predict the Pak bomb and the WMD claims against Iraq.

Any reasons to think that Junior improved the intel agencies to the point where we get something back for the wasted $'s?
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#13
Actually, there is one thing left out of the intelligence mix here. The intelligence cites observed installations, and the lack of change over time. However, there is no mention of the ones that are deep within the ground, and thus not able to be observed. I wonder if we have taken those into consideration?

Personally, I would not think so.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#14
John L, I think the US probably has vast humint resources in Iran, since Iran used to be our ally, and there are a huge number of people in the general population that would like nothing better than to see the Ayatollahs toppled and American influence restored. Those underground facilities are probably deeply penetrated by agents favorable to us.
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#15
Quad,

I have never stated the first time I was convinced Iran was attempting to nuke up,in fact I have argued that we had no evidence to that effect with Yak months ago. Iran's leaders have followed the NK model and I don't believe they have nukes either,both used crude threats and NK achieved blackmail success,it remains to be seen what Iran's benefits are.

With this POTUS,you can be assured Iran will come out smelling like a rose,but beyond that I have no comment.

Iran has been involved with international terrorism since 1979,I don't need George Walker Bush to inform me on that.

Ron,

I doubt we have a single agent in Iran who is accessing anything important. We got about 80 Iranians murdered about 5 years ago,word does get around ya know? They were rolled up when some dufus in the CIA let slip how we communicated with them.
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#16
Palladin Wrote:I have never stated the first time I was convinced Iran was attempting to nuke up,in fact I have argued that we had no evidence to that effect with Yak months ago. Iran's leaders have followed the NK model and I don't believe they have nukes either,both used crude threats and NK achieved blackmail success,it remains to be seen what Iran's benefits are.

Palladin,

So basically Iran's own statements are be taken as heresay? If so, which part. The part about having 3000 centrifuges working or the part about not using the enriched material for a bomb? Is it earthshaking news that they might have become a bit more tight lipped about the technical aspects of their ultimate aims in 2003? Including efforts for the design of "the package"? NK most likely had the material but managed to muck up "the package" ... otherwise their latest extortion efforts would probalby have been a lot pricier. If Pakistan managed to get it right, I wouldn't put a huge amount of faith in Iran getting it wrong .. given enough time.

With regards to Administration policy, what part of the "somebody else's problem" Doctrine don't you get? Everybody gets a bye here for the time being. The "Iranian Threat" gets put off till 2010 ... the Administration get's a (historical record) pass on any consequences for not following through on it's own rhetoric ... the Euro's hand wringing efforts at more sanctions get torpedoed ... everybody goes away happy ... for a while.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#17
Yak,

Enriching uranium can be for 2 purposes,reactors or exploding fission weapons. We have no evidence to make the claim we KNOW option 2 is it. Your suppositions here based on public statements cannot be used as cause celeb for war with 70 million humans.

Bush never had any knowledge on Iran,just suppositions,on Iraq he had false knowledge from the CIA,on Iran he hasn't even been falsely informed,he ,like you,assumes Iran is trying to get A bombs and falaciously misled this nation to believe it was a certainty.

Maybe they are trying to achieve that. But,we have no evidence of it. I've operated centrifges ,Yak,I make no bombs nor were ours used for bombs,rather to prepare fuel for reactors.
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#18
Link
Quote: Yesterday the director of national intelligence released a summary of the latest National Intelligence Estimate's findings on Iran, which directly contradict the previous NIE's findings of 2005. The summary helpfully provides, on the final page of the PDF linked atop this article, a table of the differences between the 2005 findings and the 2007 ones.

In 2005, the authors of the report "assess[ed] with high confidence that Iran currently is determined to develop nuclear weapons despite its international obligations and international pressure, but we do not assess that Iran is immovable."

In 2007, they "judge with high confidence that in fall 2003, Tehran halted its nuclear weapons program. Judge with high confidence that the halt lasted at least several years. . . . Assess with moderate confidence Tehran had not restarted its nuclear weapons program as of mid-2007, but we do not know whether it currently intends to develop nuclear weapons."
Evidently, intelligence information changes. So, Palladin, I think your acrimony towards Bush is misplaced on this issue.

track_snake Wrote:2. that Iraq did not possess any WMD at the time of the US-led invasion but that they very probably had WMD:s before but got rid of them or destroyed them some time between 1995 and 2000.
Some sources may have said this, but not all of them. You cannot cherry pick sources after the fact to support your bias and remain credible.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#19
Palladin Wrote:Maybe they are trying to achieve that. But,we have no evidence of it. I've operated centrifges ,Yak,I make no bombs nor were ours used for bombs,rather to prepare fuel for reactors.

Palladin,

We really didn't have evidence of Pakistans efforts either. It's a heck of a dice roll ...

But fear not! Cuz it'll be somebody else's problem!!

Quote:But we haven't seen anyone celebrating the NIE as good news for America. The people who profess to believe it all seem to view it as a partisan document, a weapon to be used in their battle against the Bush administration. To the administration's domestic foes, it doesn't seem to matter how much of a threat Iran poses; short-term political gain is more important than the interests of America.

The administration is vulnerable to the same criticism. By releasing the NIE now, it seems to be signaling that it has decided to throw in the towel on dealing with the Iranian threat, leaving it for the next administration.

This column does not have high confidence that the NIE is right. But we certainly hope it is, because if it isn't, its consequences could prove very dangerous.

In the meantime ... what me worry?
[Image: Alfred_E_Neuman.jpg]

And speaking of entertaining worries ... Ed Koch has an interesting take on some folks that sound like they are a lot more terrified of Iran than virtually anyone in this country.

Quote:According to many Middle East experts, the coming together of Arab nations at the request of President Bush indicates that Arabs are in such fear of Iran and its efforts to dominate the region that they are willing to cooperate with the United States more than ever before.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#20
jt,

DOWH!! You beat me to Jim Taranto by a measly 3 minutes!! S4

:lol: :lol:
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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