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Article on Recent Success In Iraq
#21
track_snake Wrote:Palladin,

Sunni is about 30-35% of the Iraqi population. To give them just 5% of the post-Saddam influence in Iraq when they had say 80% before the fall of Saddam was inappropriate.

But now the policy has changed and let us hope that we will see a fair distribution of power in the future Iraq.

/track_snake

T_S, you forget that in a "Representative system", if a group of citizens refuse to participate in the elective process, they have nobody but themselves to blame for their low representation. After all, they DID boycott the elections, if you had been following the process.

So, keeping that in mind, what is your complaint here?
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#22
John L Wrote:
track_snake Wrote:Palladin,

Sunni is about 30-35% of the Iraqi population. To give them just 5% of the post-Saddam influence in Iraq when they had say 80% before the fall of Saddam was inappropriate.

But now the policy has changed and let us hope that we will see a fair distribution of power in the future Iraq.

/track_snake

T_S, you forget that in a "Representative system", if a group of citizens refuse to participate in the elective process, they have nobody but themselves to blame for their low representation. After all, they DID boycott the elections, if you had been following the process.

So, keeping that in mind, what is your complaint here?
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My complaint is that nobody (including the US) did enough to convince the Sunnis to participate in the electoral process.

/track_snake
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#23
That's naive,the Sunnis in early 2004 firmly believed they and only they would rule Iraq,that we would leave and nothing would change.

We couldn't force them to vote,let alone talk them into it.

The way the shiites are acting,it's meaningless,long term democracy won't work there. It's a sham since these folks view their religion as the only basis for receiving a vote,not talent or governing ideas.

At any rate,the surge is not just US troopers and these guys ain't never leaving:

HERE
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#24
T_S Wrote:My complaint is that nobody (including the US) did enough to convince the Sunnis to participate in the electoral process.
You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#25
track_snake Wrote:------------------------------------------
My complaint is that nobody (including the US) did enough to convince the Sunnis to participate in the electoral process.

/track_snake

T_S, just what do you think should have been done? Should the US, or Shia have bent over and kissed the Sunni's arses? Gotten on their knees? Offered to give them double vote privilege? Talk about bending over backwards.

I don't know about you, but I intend to kiss nobody's 'backside'. It is against my moral principles, and I will not blame some for not kow-towing to others.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#26
John L Wrote:
track_snake Wrote:------------------------------------------
My complaint is that nobody (including the US) did enough to convince the Sunnis to participate in the electoral process.

/track_snake

T_S, just what do you think should have been done? Should the US, or Shia have bent over and kissed the Sunni's arses? Gotten on their knees? Offered to give them double vote privilege? Talk about bending over backwards.

I don't know about you, but I intend to kiss nobody's 'backside'. It is against my moral principles, and I will not blame some for not kow-towing to others.
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Well...

The US military strategists should have realized the problems that would occur if they said (1) that they would bring democracy to Iraq, and (2) that elections would become boycotted by the Sunnis.

If they did in 2003 what they are doing now in 2007 (understanding the problem and letting the Sunnis get a more fair participation) then the war in Iraq would not have been so troublesome.

The elections should have been better prepared and the US should have been giving Sunni politicians and voters in Sunni areas better protection.

After Saddam's fall, Iraq was virtually in chaos and widespread looting occured. The US military should have done more to keep Iraqi government institutions working and to prevent looting. For example, it was not necessary to ban Baath party members from holding their government jobs. Since 90% of government workforce (including police, military etc.) was Baath party members this ban lead to a true brain drop in Iraq. Government institutions should have been put into work as soon as possible after the invasion not letting chaos take over. By doing so, the later elections would also have had a much bigger participation from the Sunnis.

/track_snake

/track_snake
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#27
track_snake Wrote:---------------------
Well...

The US military strategists should have realized the problems that would occur if they said (1) that they would bring democracy to Iraq, and (2) that elections would become boycotted by the Sunnis.

If they did in 2003 what they are doing now in 2007 (understanding the problem and letting the Sunnis get a more fair participation) then the war in Iraq would not have been so troublesome.

The elections should have been better prepared and the US should have been giving Sunni politicians and voters in Sunni areas better protection.

After Saddam's fall, Iraq was virtually in chaos and widespread looting occured. The US military should have done more to keep Iraqi government institutions working and to prevent looting. For example, it was not necessary to ban Baath party members from holding their government jobs. Since 90% of government workforce (including police, military etc.) was Baath party members this ban lead to a true brain drop in Iraq. Government institutions should have been put into work as soon as possible after the invasion not letting chaos take over. By doing so, the later elections would also have had a much bigger participation from the Sunnis.

/track_snake

/track_snake

Since you are quite good at second guessing things, have you considered acting as a subcontractor, with bonuses of course, to the military in order to show them how to 'do it right' the next time? S6 Wink1
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#28
Here's an interesting look at the recent positive changes. Iran is on everyone's mind and not only the Sunnis,as witness the 300,000 signature petition against Iran's in fluence in Iraq down south:

HERE
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#29
Where are the American film moguls waitng in line to make a movie about Abul Abed? ...Or any other of the major successes there?

Too much dependence upon Sunni-Shia hatred as the driving force behind a non-functioning Iraq is short-sided. The Baathists that held sway were commensurate with the Apparatchiki in Russia. Many held purely bureaucratic jobs that kept the people down, and redistributed their wealth, rather than engender prosperity or improve people's lives. They were not necessarily the best and brightest—just the ones on top who best gamed the system. Many of the best and brightest within the Baathists were apolitical, but held in place by their competency. Their Sunni or Shia loyalties were irrelevent then, and irrelevent now. Education has always been they key. If kids in Iraq grow up with access to the internet and Western thought, then they may not become total fodder for the Madrassa brain-washing schools.

The post WWII Germans were able to rethink their hatred of the Americans and embrace them as friends because of day-by-day events and experiences that revalidated new beliefs. Why should everyday people in Iraq, seeing freedom and the fruits of Free-enterprise do less?

Most people do not understand that time is a major factor in defeating Terrorism. They want instant change and the evildoers to admit to their perfidy and become saints. The real battle is slow and relentless, as truth and prosperity argue against religious bigotry.
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#30
Palladin Wrote:Here's an interesting look at the recent positive changes. Iran is on everyone's mind and not only the Sunnis,as witness the 300,000 signature petition against Iran's in fluence in Iraq down south:

HERE

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Well.... Iran was always the archenemy of the Baathists and ruling Sunnis in Iraq before 2003. Maybe it will turn like that again....

track_snake
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#31
WmLambert Wrote:The post WWII Germans were able to rethink their hatred of the Americans and embrace them as friends because of day-by-day events and experiences that revalidated new beliefs. Why should everyday people in Iraq, seeing freedom and the fruits of Free-enterprise do less?
Oh, it's that far-fetched comparison again.
The Germans didn't "hate" the Americans to start with, you are more unpopular now, 60 years later. S1

Here's an interesting interview concerning the latest developments:
Quote:Ricks of 'Wash Post': Don't Celebrate Turnaround in Iraq Just Yet
...
Thomas E. Ricks: Well, things are going better. I just got back from Baghdad last week, and it was clear that violence has decreased. But it hasn't gone away. It is only back down to the 2005 level -- which to my mind is kind of like moving from the eighth circle of hell to the fifth.
...
Where is Iraq going, in political terms? Currently, nowhere. That is the worrisome stalemate I wrote about in last week's article. The U.S. is placing great hope in bottom up movement, and many officials think that provincial elections will break the political logjam.
...
The Sunnis have largely stopped fighting while they seek to cut a deal to get a place at the table in post-Saddam Iraq. And the Shiites have stopped fighting the Americans for at least six months, they say -- and why not? With the Sunnis standing down, Uncle Sam would be focusing all his firepower on the Shiites.

But what if the Sunnis get sick of waiting? And what happens when U.S. forces start declining in number next year?
...
Vienna, Va.: Mr. Ricks, not a question, just a comment: It seems that those who are claiming the surge to be a success either are lowering the bar (for political or other reasons), or simply can't tell the difference between tactics and strategy.

Thomas E. Ricks: Good comment.
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/...7269&imw=Y
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
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#32
Stroll,

This thread says "recent success in Iraq",not total victory. Anyone with a brain knows that is to be determined.
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#33
The shiite majority elected government apparently is in serious talks about a long term US presence in Iraq. IF this is accurate,it seems to me to be the strongest and best evidence Arabs are not interested in being the tools of Persians as many claim simply because some share the same strain of Islam:


HERE
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#34
If such an arrangement could be made, and stick, it would certainly alter the military and political structure of the Middle East. It would provide a base for the projection of US forces, and help insure Iraq's stabilization. Perhaps too good to be true, and it could introduce new geopolitical tensions, with many countries again worried about the US as a hyper power or "imperialist". There would be many ramifications. But, could the US afford such bases in Iraq? Perhaps, if they closed some in Germany, for example.
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#35
jt Wrote:If such an arrangement could be made, and stick, it would certainly alter the military and political structure of the Middle East. It would provide a base for the projection of US forces, and help insure Iraq's stabilization. Perhaps too good to be true, and it could introduce new geopolitical tensions, with many countries again worried about the US as a hyper power or "imperialist". There would be many ramifications. But, could the US afford such bases in Iraq? Perhaps, if they closed some in Germany, for example.
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Well, I don't see why the US should need a troop presence in Germany now more than 60 years after WWII. So if the US troop presence in Iraq should become permanent, it seems logical to cut down US troops elsewhere.

And if the presence of US troops on a permanent basis is wished by all ethnic groups in Iraq (Kurds, Shias, Sunnis) so why not? I could foresee that both Kurds and Sunnis could prefer such solution over being left over to too much Shia influence if the US troops are gone...

/track_snake
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#36
Palladin Wrote:Stroll,

This thread says "recent success in Iraq",not total victory. Anyone with a brain knows that is to be determined.
Ehh??? Is "total victory" mentioned anywhere? :o

"Don't Celebrate Turnaround in Iraq Just Yet" id the headline in the article I pointed to. Anything unclear about this? 8)
The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.
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#37
stroll Wrote:
WmLambert Wrote:The post WWII Germans were able to rethink their hatred of the Americans and embrace them as friends because of day-by-day events and experiences that revalidated new beliefs. Why should everyday people in Iraq, seeing freedom and the fruits of Free-enterprise do less?
Oh, it's that far-fetched comparison again.
The Germans didn't "hate" the Americans to start with, you are more unpopular now, 60 years later. S1
don't know about you West Germans, but the Amis were our enemy. Didn't know much about them in the communist era, could have been propaganda what we were told about them. As it turned out to be, reality is way bleaker than the propaganda had been. Communist propaganda had the disadvantage that it had to consider all humans as equal, just of different political agendas. It couldn't distinguish humans from something fundamentally alien.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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