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ObamaCare, Michael Moore, and Socialized Medicine.
#1
Oh Lord!: where to start on this one. Since nobody has bothered to take up this topic, someone has to do it, so I will take the first stab. And up front, I'll admit that I have not seen the movie, and really don't intend to either. Perhaps Grizzly can bring us up to date on it?

I have just opened up my E-mail from my daily newsletter from the National Center for Policy Analysis, and at the top of the list was this little subject.

Quote:"SICKO" SERVES UP HEALTH CARE LIES

Congressional leaders who have spent decades promoting a government-run health care system for the United States are abuzz about Michael Moore's new film, "Sicko," hoping it will sway a new generation of voters to support their agenda.

But heaven forbid that Congress would wind up making policy based upon propaganda -- because that is exactly what would happen if anyone were to base any health reform proposals on Moore's film, says Grace-Marie Turner, president of the Galen Institute.
For example, Moore ignores the limits, restrictions on access, and rationing of care in single-payer health care systems in Canada, the United Kingdom and elsewhere.
In Canada, more than 800,000 people are on waiting lists for surgery and other medical treatment, with some forced to wait months or even years for the care they need.

One of Moore's core arguments is that profit in the health sector is evil and that we should rid our health care system of private "for-profit" physician practices, hospitals and suppliers. He and other single-payer advocates are convinced that a generous and benevolent government would put doctors and hospitals back in charge of decisions. But this isn't the case, says Turner:
In our own government-run health care systems -- Medicare, Medicaid and the Department of Veteran Affairs - government micromanagement and price controls are the norm.
Government makes decisions about what will be covered, under what circumstances and for whom, and how much doctors and hospitals will be paid for their services.
And government seldom gets it right -- overpaying for some and underpaying for others, but also inducing over-consumption of health care.

Source: Grace-Marie Turner, "Marie Turner: `Sicko' serves up health care lies," Pasadena Star News, July 4, 2007.

For text:

http://www.pasadenastarnews.com/opinions/ci_6299715

Actually, this is only the tip of the iceberg, when it comes to this subject. I have been researching this, because my friend, who also works in my shop, has a friend(a former sweetheart), who had him over to her house yesterday, where he helped her move in to her new home. The topic somehow got around to Moore's movie, and how we need national healthcare. Anyway my friend Mike was a bit upset, because we both share the same philosophy, and asked me for rebuttal information to give her to ponder. So I started moving around and found a wealth of information out there about "Sicko", and the threat of national socialized medicine should a Jackass make it to the White House in the 2008 election.

Here is some of what I found. First, go to the CATO Institute, which is one of my favorite Libertarian Think Tanks. Now, move around and check out the video of Stewart Browning discussing Moore's movie and socialized medicine. If you go to his own site, He has five great videos of his own, and numerous articles that are a wealth of objective information about nationalized health care. Anyone watching and reading these articles will be brain dead not to understand how socialized medicine are terribly bad for the US.

For further reading, here are some more articles.

Canadian Journalists Criticized Michael Moore's Portrayal of Canada's Health Care in 'Sicko'. Even the lefties, and Canadians, are not happy with Moore.

And in typical Left wing thinking, here is what one of the responders, to the article, had to say, which summs up the mindset(sic) of the Collectivist Left. Well his heart is in the right place. Like Al Gore, exaggerating anything and everything so you get the desired effect is the way to implement for the uncaring masses. It's the only way someone in charge can convince the unclean chattle what's good for them."

Canada's Broken Health Care System


Competition is The Way.


Enough Gushing over Moore to Make You 'Sicko'


Michael Moore's Wish For America.. Cuban Healthcare (Photos) Please note that in typical SSR tradition, there is no toilet paper in the hospital either. I suppose that this is part and parcel of Marxist States: no need for toilet paper, fingers are better, and reuseable. Wink1


Health Care: Socialized medicine is still a threat to freedom.


Review: 'SiCKO' Doesn't Offer Cure-All for Health Care: Michael Moore offers a lot of criticism for American health care, but his solution is taxing on viewers, citizens. By Jeff Poor


Socialized Medicine Blog This is a very comprehensive site, and has a great deal of information about Socialized Medicine. Check it out, and see if you don't agree.


Socialized Medicine in Cuba 2002 (Part I): A Poor State of Health!, by Miguel A. Faria Jr., M.D.


Socialized Medicine in Cuba Part II: "Doctor Diplomacy," Sex Tourism, and Medical Apartheid, by Miguel A. Faria, Jr., M.D.


Socialized Medicine: The Canadian Experience

More lies from Moore, BY SALLY PIPES




If anyone has any great links to articles about socialized medicine, please fee free to put them here, as I am certain that this subject will be a big one in the future, especially if a Democrat enters the WH. I'll actually have to start a thread like my AGW Skeptics thread.

Comments are greatly encouraged here. Wink1
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#2
The recent UK attack and near misses privide a timely reminder of what happens when your health care system is so badly screwed up that you're forced to start importing medics from Bagdad. Frankly I'm surprised that we haven't heard stories of shrunken heads resulting from the desperation imports of African medical professionals. If it gets any worse, the British Heath Care System will risk being on par with the VA ... aka America's already existing "government run for free" Health Care System. I wonder if Michael Moore has heard of the VA?
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#3
mr_yak Wrote:The recent UK attack and near misses privide a timely reminder of what happens when your health care system is so badly screwed up that you're forced to start importing medics from Bagdad. Frankly I'm surprised that we haven't heard stories of shrunken heads resulting from the desperation imports of African medical professionals. If it gets any worse, the British Heath Care System will risk being on par with the VA ... aka America's already existing government run Health Care System. I wonder if Michael Moore has heard of the VA?

How true. As a veteran, and a member of the system, I am well aware of it's shortcomings. Wink1

Here is another thought. How much longer can the Brits and Canucks keep up with their socialized programs? Obviously a point will be reached where it will eventually fall on it's face and die, as it should. The Brits have made some changes in that they now allow for citizens to obtain private insurance, and pay for care out of their own pockets. Canada will most likely have to follow suit. If you watch those videos at the site I mention near the top, you will see what happens when patients are forced to wait on scarce provisions. It's simply amazing the inefficiency and waste.

I wonder what percentage of Canadian physicians have already left to south of the border?
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#4
John L.,

Don't expect Canada to scrap it's system anytime soon ... anymore than they could bear to scrap their failed billion dollar firearm registry. The odds of getting rid of it are about the same as our getting rid of the IRS. It's institutionalized. The only gov. program that I've ever witnessed being rolled back was welfare ... I don't expect to see a repeat in my lifetime.

As for flight of doctors, it doesn't matter. They'll get them from India or South Africa or some of those greasy little bananna republics that have mail order med. schools. Remember, it's a gov. program ... hence quality is no longer a viable metric.

VA hospitals are an excellent model for socialized health care. I volunteered at one of them back when I was a college bound youngster. There are good people ... but often they are dumping grounds for medical people with competency and other issues ... or people who just need more experience before the can get a job working on "paying customers". (Shiver!) My (late) step father who had a number of mental issues (not the least of which was getting part of his head blown off on Iwo Jima) was treated pretty much by by having mountains of Valium and Elavil thrown his way. Much cheaper to turn him into a chemical zombie than actually deal with his problems you see? ... much more "cost effective" ... and the government gets a big volume discount on drugs so it all works out just great.
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#5
I agree, but what do you think about the upcoming campaign, and the democrat's, who are ALL advocating socialized medicine? I suspect that this will be one of the main talking points with them.
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#6
Here is another recent article in the WSJ, Socialized Medicine Showdown : It's time for some GOP spine on health care. BY KIMBERLEY A. STRASSEL

And, Socialized Medicine for 'Kids', By Robert Novak

Do we want socialized medicine? By Walter E. Williams

Canadians Dissatisfied With Socialized Medicine

Big Business for Socialized Medicine, By Michael Tanner

Private medicine could help staunch Canadian brain drain

Market Medicine, by Johan Hjertqvist in the European Wall Street Journal, December 6, 2006

SOCIALIZED MEDICINE IS THE PROBLEM, by Walter Block

Canada's Fatal Error --- Health Care as a Right (Part I), byMichael E. Aubrey, MD

Canada's Fatal Error --- Health Care as a Right (Part II), by Michael E. Aubrey, MD

"Twenty Myths about National Health Insurance" by John Goodman and Gerald Musgrave, National Center for Policy Analysis, December 1991.

Your Money and Your Life: The Price of Universal Health Care, By Jane M. Orient

THE ARCHIMEDES MOVEMENT

Canadian Medical Association elects supporter of private medicine as president

Paying More, Getting Less 2006::
Measuring the Sustainability of Public Health Insurance in Canada: Publication Date: September 2006, byMark Rovere,


Public Health Insurance in Canada Financially Unsustainable According to Annual Study, byBrett J. Skinner

Complementary and Alternative Medicine in Canada: Trends in Use and Public Attitudes, 1997-2006, by Nadeem Esmail

Medical Savings Accounts: Universal, Accessible, Portable and Comprehensive Health Care for Canadians, by Cynthia Ramsay

Canada's Physician Shortage: Effects, Projections, and Solutions, by Nadeem Esmail

Waiting Your Turn: Hospital Waiting Lists in Canada, 16th Edition, by Nadeem Esmail

How Good is Canadian Health Care? 2006 Report: An International Comparison of Health Care Systems, by Nadeem Esmail

The Misguided War Against Medicines: Are Drug Expenditures Making Public Health Insurance Financially Unsustainable?, by Mark Rovere,

California Dreaming: The Fantasy of a Canadian-Style Health Insurance Monopoly in the United States, by Mark Rovere



LORD, the wealth of information about the evils of socialized medicine. Not enough time in the day to accumulate all of it.
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#7
John L Wrote:I agree, but what do you think about the upcoming campaign, and the democrat's, who are ALL advocating socialized medicine? I suspect that this will be one of the main talking points with them.

I doubt that it's going to be very interesting from the dem side. Look at their candidates! It's going to be a socialist rumble to see who can offer the 'freeest' plan. It's not going to stop until they come up with a program that actually pays people to get sick.

A smart GOP candidate might get some real mileage for casting some light on the ugly warts that exist within Brits and Kanucks systems that Moore failed to cover ... including the fact that they are so hard up that they have to recruit jihadist docs. What would really amaze me is if somebody did some something really radical and started talking about following the money. Healthcare inflation is nearly into double digits! If increased usage is creating a scarcity, why aren't we simply making more?? What's (artificially) holding us back? Frankly, I'd like to see a pie chart of the individual cost components and their individual contribution to increased cost (anybody know of one?). It would be nice to see an effort to analyze the problem rather than a bunch of dull campaign promises to simply throw more money at it in order to make it "free".
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#8
mr_yak Wrote:
John L Wrote:I agree, but what do you think about the upcoming campaign, and the democrat's, who are ALL advocating socialized medicine? I suspect that this will be one of the main talking points with them.

I doubt that it's going to be very interesting from the dem side. Look at their candidates! It's going to be a socialist rumble to see who can offer the 'freeest' plan. It's not going to stop until they come up with a program that actually pays people to get sick.

A smart GOP candidate might get some real mileage for casting some light on the ugly warts that exist within Brits and Kanucks systems that Moore failed to cover ... including the fact that they are so hard up that they have to recruit jihadist docs. What would really amaze me is if somebody did some something really radical and started talking about following the money. Healthcare inflation is nearly into double digits! If increased usage is creating a scarcity, why aren't we simply making more?? What's (artificially) holding us back? Frankly, I'd like to see a pie chart of the individual cost components and their individual contribution to increased cost (anybody know of one?). It would be nice to see an effort to analyze the problem rather than a bunch of dull campaign promises to simply throw more money at it in order to make it "free".

You are assuming too much Yackman. The S&Gs, when they are smart, are gutless. And when they are not gutless, they are not smart. Do you see where I am heading?
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#9
More links:

Origins of the Welfare State in America
By Murray N. Rothbard


ECONOMIC FASCISM
by Thomas J. DiLorenzo


THE ADMINISTRATIVE COST FALLACY

To the Robin Hood Era...and Back, by Vern Cherewatenko, M.D.


THE DARK SIDE OF ENTITLEMENTS

CANADIAN MEDICARE: A ROAD TO SERFDOM, by William E. Goodman, MD

THE CANADIAN MODEL: COULD IT WORK HERE? by William E. Goodman, MD , Toronto, Ontario, Canada

Class action lawsuit fights ban on private health care, by Michelle Lang, Calgary Herald

Single-payer medical system is sure to flop, by Dr. Jane M. Orient

Activists Promote Known Failures as Health Care Reform, By Linda Gorman

FUTILITARIANISM

MRSA, other infections rampant in NHS hospitals in Britain

Undercover investigation of British NHS hospitals

Debt-hit NHS trust forced to cancel operations
By Celia Hall


Cash-strapped hospitals plan to close another thousand beds, By Karyn Miller and Catherine Humble

Health - Third of all NHS trusts plan cuts, says BMA- Daily Telegraph

NONPAYMENT FOR NONCOMPLIANCE-Britian

Merkel forced to delay health reform plans, By Bertrand Benoit in Berlin

Doctors on Strike — The Crisis in German Health Care Delivery, by Dennis Nowak, M.D.

Media Ignored Criticisms of Socialized Medicine in Story of Quarantined TB Patient, Posted by Lynn Davidson

Sickoes – Socialized Medicine Provides Al Qua’ida an Ideal Cover

Europeans Flee Socialism: What Part Don't We Understand? Europeans' flight from Europe, By Paul Belie

Socialized Medicine, By Dan Smoot

Overhaul of German health system is Merkel’s first priority

PDF: Getting rid of Marx and Bismarck in Health Care: the German Quagmire

The other side of compromise: The gloom of Swiss doctors

“The Long Road to Freedom in Canadian Medicine,” by Jacques Chaoulli, M.D

German and Swiss doctors protest

"COVERING" THE UNINSURED: THE WRONG GOAL

Socialized Medicine Leaves a Bad Taste in Patients' Mouths, by Lawrence W. Reed

Universal Health Coverage --- Call It Socialized Medicine, by Lawrence R. Huntoon, MD, PhD

Corporate Socialized Medicine Threatens Medical Profession, by Miguel A. Faria, Jr., M.D.

America’s Socialized Health Care, by Lawrence Wilson, M.D

Socialized Medicine is Sicko!

Socialized Medicine Is Wrong For Colorado, by Paul S. Hsieh, MD

Why Health Insurance Should Not Be Universal, by Michael J. Hurd

Universal Health Care Freedom on the Fourth of July, by Richard E. Ralston

Health Care's A Mess--So What's the Solution? by Michael J. Hurd

Health Care Is a Business--or Should Be, by Richard E. Ralston

Should the Veterans Administration Take Over All Health Care?, by Richard E. Ralston

Profits Lower the Cost of Health Care in the Long Run, by Richard E. Ralston

Making More Health Insurance Premiums Tax-Deductible, by Steve Buckstein

Health Care is Not a Right, by Leonard Peikoff

Mandatory Health Insurance: Health Care by Force, by Richard E. Ralston

The Danger Of Socialized Medicine, by Andrew Sullivan

Socialized Medicine in a Wealthy Country, by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.

Europe's Beleaguered Drug Companies, by Andrew Sullivan

Socialized Medicine Kills, Amy Alkon

More lies from Moore, BY SALLY PIPES
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#10
While selfemployed, I had one of Germanies best private insurances, compensating me for virtually all medical expenses, no matter how outlandish or expansive they were. The majority of Germans have public insurances, which restrict what doctors and hospitals can medicate to what is medically necessary, which restrict expenses for drugs - if the same drug is offered by different companies the cheaper one has to be chosen, which also restrict how much money doctors and hospitals can make with certain treatments. I didn't have such restrictions and was a liked customer by doctors, they could easily make ten times more money with me for the same therapy, that a public insured patient enjoyed. And they did.
I always got the bills by post, unlike public insured people were they are sent directly to the public insurer. Can't remember a single honest bill... The handshake mutated to a 'lengthy discussion' about the treatment to follow for Euro 50,- or so, treatments or parts of it that I actually didn't receive were also on the bills. Totally useless treatments were normal too, had back troubles that drove me nearly insane and I clutched for every straw. Abused by the doctors as much as they could. Remember the very last bill by my dentist before I moved to Thailand, one filling and removing of plaque, some 30 minutes of work were Euro 440,- Directly afterwards I went to the barber, 30 minutes there for a haircut were Euro 7,-
I don't think market medicine would lead to anything good. In matters of life and health, business must have no place. The patient, or customer has no leverage.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#11
quadrat Wrote:I don't think market medicine would lead to anything good. In matters of life and health, business must have no place. The patient, or customer has no leverage.

What a crock. You happily infer that you let them get away with ripping off your private insurer .... apparently because it would have been too much of an inconvinience to attempt to hold them accountable ... or identify treatments that were more effective and less "expensive and outlandish". So much easier just to let them make their lucrative errors with "someone else's" money. Used to be the same way in this country. Nobody cared because someone else was paying for it. Companies paid insurance providers ... insurance providers paid the doctors and hospitals ... the government lavished tax breaks on the employers ... no one really cared if a bandaid cost $1000. But the government figured out that the scheme was digging too much into tax revenue. And suddenly we are realizing who actually pays for the $1000 bandaids. In matters of life and death if a hospital demands a credit card while someone is bleeding to death is probably going to trigger a criminal indictment*. In other matters, the accounting should take place as it does in any other transaction. If you had grocery insurance and your grocer charged them $1000 for an apple and you allowed them to do it, what do you suppose would happen to the price of food?

With the possible exception of tax revenue, the government is horribly inept at accounting. Putting them in charge of a system that is desperately in need of metrics and corrective actions is a recipe for certain disaster.

John L Wrote:You are assuming too much Yackman. The S&Gs, when they are smart, are gutless. And when they are not gutless, they are not smart. Do you see where I am heading?

Yep. But the roles are pretty well cast here. You're simply NOT going to see a rational plan out of the Jackasses. Certainly nothing that looks into actually correcting the runaway inflation or anything resembling cost accountability. Last on the list is any sort of tort relief ... not when somebody like Edwards is going to end up as VP. Malpractice insurance for gynos runs somthing like $250,000 +. What would your cost of doing buisness do if you had to pony up that kind of sum annually for the privellege of plying your trade?

Question for Quadrat ... what public entity covers your healthcare now? I suspect that private coverage has a 'place' for YOU. ... and if you're paying for it yourself, do you still let them rip YOU off?

*Lets review how "free" hospitals in the inner city (models for socialized medicine) handle the same situation. How much 'leverage' did that lady have in the "free" public system Quadrat? Anybody think that's going to change much when the rest of us are forced into it? The market system is the ONLY leverage we have. And when we lose it were at the mercy of folks that have no qualms about watching someone bleed to death on the floor.
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#12
mr_yak, uninsured, paying for myself. It's an alien country with alien insurances which don't cover everything, but shite the like of "accidentally hit by an elefant while playing in the pool in a thunderstorm on even numbered days". It's a lot cheaper here anyway, though the standard is pretty good. Can actually judge the dentist only and the prices for clap medication, had no more demand. The price differences between hospitals are huge for the same treatment, the local "Bangkok Pattaya" (that's the brutal business masqueraded as a hospital that let a young American die, because he had at the time of his accident no identification, insurance evidence and sufficient cash in his pockets. Reported the case a couple of weeks ago), bills about five times more than the also private "Memorial Hospital" a few blocks away.
Here's a link covering medical tourism of Americans
http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20070706/hl_...akesflight with a couple of price comparisons. How do you explain differences of thousands of percent for the same treatment, with the same time and effort of doctors, and medical equipment, and medication? The must make nice profits in the US, and you want to give them more?
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#13
mr_yak,
sorry, didn't see all the stuff before. Your sophisticated mind couldn't discover the other possibilities?

a) I had my insurer refund the exaggerated bills and paid the doctors less myself, or
b) I challenged the bills first and sent them to my insurer only when they were corrected.

Now, what did I do?

I'm no doctor and dependend on their judgement. I guess most patients are in a similar situation. Not inflated bills are the biggest problem, here the patient can actually do something. Sometimes. But not against the abuse of their knowledge, and trust of the patients, and extremely exaggerated costs of medication. If, say, original Pfizer Viagra costs fifty times more than an Indian made generic of identical quality, you get a clue what's going on.
Coupla of years ago I was involved in the marketing of a medication against a condition that doesn't even exist, "tired leg syndrome" translated directly from German. Big advertisment buses all over Germany advising the mostly elderly customers, agents of the pharma industry pestering the doctors to create a market for the drug, paying nice commissions. State insurances declined to pay for the BS, the identified patients had to do it themselves.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#14
Quote: But not against the abuse of their knowledge, and trust of the patients, and extremely exaggerated costs of medication

You've never created medicine so how the hell would you know if it was exargerated or not?

You wouldn't
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#15
mr_yak Wrote:Putting them in charge of a system that is desperately in need of metrics and corrective actions is a recipe for certain disaster.
Quite correct. And the same prob. exists with "education": real metric is extremely difficult to come by. By the nature of both systems the feed-back is delayed, often for years, and if car breaks soon after repairs, one can change the mechanic, or change the car. Both options are not available in the above systems.
Quote:Malpractice insurance for gynos runs somthing like $250,000 +. What would your cost of doing buisness do if you had to pony up that kind of sum annually for the privellege of plying your trade?
And many are willingly pay it up. Do you want to know why? 1. Without a malpractice ins. it is difficult to get patients' insurance carrier to recognise you as legitimate, and 2. When you really screw up if you do have this insurance, you continue to "ply" your trade as if nothing happens (premium goes up, of course, but you can continue), while without this insurance your business is finished, 3. To lose a state license is even more difficult than to "ply" it without insurance, and you can always get license in a neighboring state... and continue to maim and kill. Present licencing arrangements simply do not weed out incompetents agressively enough.
Quote:The market system is the ONLY leverage we have.
True. But the devil is (as always) in the details. And doctors' bills (as outrageous as they often are) are only a small part of true costs.
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#16
Quote:You've never created medicine so how the hell would you know if it was exargerated or not?
You wouldn't
Lithium,
Sorry to learn you got a problem with first grade maths, what actually doesn't surprise me following your statements. S4

Ok, exclusively for you a couple of prices from here: "If, say, original Pfizer Viagra costs fifty times more than an Indian made generic of identical quality, you get a clue what's going on" (I stated above).
Voltaren(Diclofenac) by Bayer 10x75mg 250 Baht / Diclofenac 10x50mg Thai generic 30Baht.
Zovirax(Aciclovir)(30x200mg capsules) by Wellcome 720 Baht / Vilerm(Aciclovir) Thai generic(25x200mg tabs) 240 Baht.
Zithromax(Azithromycin)(6x250mg capsules) by Pfizer 575 Baht / Cytran(Azithromycin)(8x250mg capsules) Swiss made generic, 350 Baht.
The patents of the last three examples have expired, generics are legal. Bayer, Glaxo and Pfizer were the original patent holders and still manufacture the drugs, but significantly more expensive than identical generics. Don't know how much they were while the patents lasted, surely a lot more pricey.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#17
ag Wrote:... the devil is (as always) in the details.

ag,

"The devil" is in the fact that no one is really considering the 'details'. Burying them in a government administered system is only going to make that worse.

Regarding malpractice insurance, it probably doesn't weed out the truly incompetent either ... probably a bit like car insurance ... if you kill and maim too many people most likely you simply pay a bit more ... or more accurately the patients do ... in more ways than one. Certainly there has to be a better way. The ugly warts of our existing system really should see the light of day. All socialized medicine is going to do is keep them covered in even deeper darkness.

Nobody it seems has that pie chart I'd really like to see that could maybe begin to explain all the bandaid inflation. Sad. S4
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#18
[Image: 07-10-07.jpg]
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#19
Good article from John Stossel today re: Moore's vision of Government Enforced Virtue.
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#20
mr_yak Wrote:Good article from John Stossel today re: Moore's vision of Government Enforced Virtue.

Here is what I liked the most.

Quote:Moore followed up with a religious lesson. "What the nuns told me is true: We will be judged by how we treat the least among us. And that in order to be accepted into heaven, we're gonna be asked a series of questions. When I was hungry, did you feed me? When I was homeless, did you give me shelter? And when I was sick, did you take care of me?"

I thought that it is people who are admitted into heaven, not the State. The nuns were talking about people being charitable, not the government, which FORCES you to be giving.

I can just see this right now: first there is the SSR, which is judged and sent away. Then there is another State, which is next in line for scrutiny. Then another, and then another. Can't you just see this? Only in the mind of a Collectivist Kook would he mistake the import of individuals giving charity, over that of his beloved State. Amazing!

Thank you John Stossel. You are indeed a great patriot, AND Libertarian. Wink1
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