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Chavez and Venezuela
#1
No one seems to care but the good folks in Venezuela,but Chavez is going Castro rapidly. Even leftist Latins are ticked off. Those who believe in prayer need to pray for the nation down there.
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#2
Palladin Wrote:No one seems to care but the good folks in Venezuela,but Chavez is going Castro rapidly. Even leftist Latins are ticked off. Those who believe in prayer need to pray for the nation down there.

I already have. The middle class and good citizens deserve better. I honestly believe that it will take an armed insurrection to get rid of Chavez any time soon.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#3
John L Wrote:
Palladin Wrote:No one seems to care but the good folks in Venezuela,but Chavez is going Castro rapidly. Even leftist Latins are ticked off. Those who believe in prayer need to pray for the nation down there.

I already have. The middle class and good citizens deserve better. I honestly believe that it will take an armed insurrection to get rid of Chavez any time soon.
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Well... It seems he is still supported by a majority. That is more than many other state leaders can say....

/track_snake
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#4
Track,

This may be true,which is another piece of evidence that democracy is not necessarily intrinsically good.
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#5
Palladin Wrote:Track,

This may be true,which is another piece of evidence that democracy is not necessarily intrinsically good.

I was thinking exactly the same thing when I first read his post. Democracies are inheritly destructive.

Quote:"Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths." President James Madison

Quote:"Democracy is a form of government that cannot long survive, for as soon as the people learn that they have a voice in the fiscal policies of the government, they will move to vote for themselves all the money in the treasury, and bankrupt the nation." Karl Marx, 1848 author of "The Communist Manifesto"
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#6
No one seems to understand when I say VIRTUE is what holds nations(or families) together. Anti selfishness.

I accept that Hillary wins in 2008(if she does) and I still love both America and the rule of law.

That is one rare outlook on life politically.
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#7
Palladin: are you equating an H. Rodham electoral victory with the Chavez electoral victory? And, are you saying that, if you were a Venezuelan, that you would not oppose Chavez in any way?

JohnL: democrat was a word that was avoided in the US until A. Jackson came along and became the champion of the common man's rights. Ironically, he was only extending Jefferson's belief in the common man and republicanism.
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#8
Palladin Wrote:No one seems to understand when I say VIRTUE is what holds nations(or families) together. Anti selfishness.
It's not virtue leads to democracy, democracy is the most virtuous form of rule. And Mr. Chavez is perfectly virtuous, if you look at what he has done, rather than what he has said - which is absolutely nothing. People pay much too much attention to what is said rather than done, which is how we got this myth of Communism being altrustic in the first place.
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#9
JT,

No,I'm pointing out that Chavez was legally elected and is being empowered by that majority,yet now he is acting like a tyrant,which means democracy in and of itself is really nothing special.

W/O national virtue,you end up with the majority of envious losers electing and empowering a thug like Chavez(or like Hitler or like Hamas in Palestine,etc.)

That's my point. Of course I would oppose Chavez if I lived there.

b5b,

I don't think any system of government is virtuous or not. If the nation has a lot of good character,any form of governor will do well for us,IMO. On the other hand,if our cup dries out of virtue,our democracy will turn like Venezuela's,where the envious and dishonest will destroy the nation.
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#10
About Chavez, when his term is up, would you bet that he will step down and allow others to run?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#11
Palladin Wrote:b5b,

I don't think any system of government is virtuous or not.
Then how about politics, it's the most virtuous form of politics, whether or not that politics includes a government.
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#12
b5b,

I just look at it differently is all. Virtue resides in the human heart,or not.

I wouldn't mind living in a monarchy with the people of 1940 America or a democracy. Same difference to me.

If things continue heading south character wise,democracy ain't going to look too hot in 50 years. More like Iraq's,anarchy and thugism.
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#13
So then why are we talking about politics?
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#14
I was struck by b5d's assertion (or assumption):

Quote:Then how about politics, it's the most virtuous form of politics, whether or not that politics includes a government.

That is a perspective diametrically opposed to the premise of the Constitutional Fathers. Their assumption moved from the premise that politics corrupts even the most virtuous. Further, they understood that government and power inevitably generated decadence and ate away at virtue hence government was to be constrained and fixed and the principal purpose of politics was the assertion of virtue against inherent decadence [see J. G. Pocock's The Machiavellian Moment].

The bane of factions [Madison's code description] was politics and the process itself was corrupting.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein
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#15
Venezuela epitomises the problems inherent to countries where inequality is allowed to grow unchecked. Chavez has a majority because previous governments ignored issues of poverty and equality. Instead of growing the middle class they shrank it; in any form of democracy it is dangerous to neglect your electorate.

Chavez will remain popular whilst there are oil revenues to pay for his policies.
"Common sense is not so common" - Voltaire
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#16
Ooops! Double post.
"Common sense is not so common" - Voltaire
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#17
Quote:No one seems to understand when I say VIRTUE is what holds nations(or families) together. Anti selfishness.
That's odd, Palladin. I would have bet selfishness (though you lately use the dull term 'rugged individualism') is the very engine and motivation of success, according to your economy gurus. Anti selfishness isn't bad, actually. Remember the next time when your rich ones long for tax-cuts: it's VIRTUE, to shoulder responsibilities for the society, not selfishness, that holds nations together.

Quote:Chavez will remain popular whilst there are oil revenues to pay for his policies.
Mmh, you make it sound indecent, menacing. Anything wrong with the use of the riches of Venezuela to boost the wealth of all Venezolanians, especially the poor ones? From my point of view, it was obscene having Venezuela pay for the policies of Exxon, Chevron, and the USA. No more. Viva Hugo!
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#18
Why Q you are actually becoming sagacious with comments such as this one:

Quote:it's VIRTUE, to shoulder responsibilities for the society, not selfishness, that holds nations together.

Strangely enough, you appear to have a better grasp on the flow of Venezuelan history when you observed:

Quote:Anything wrong with the use of the riches of Venezuela to boost the wealth of all Venezolanians, especially the poor ones?

It should be noted that Hugo Chavez is not undertaking anything that was not at the core of Acción Democrática at its founding in the 1930s as successor to ARDI ''the Revolutionary Alliance of the Left". The Bolivarian Revolution is not Athena-like in emerging from the head of Chavez. It was first sought under the revolutionary government of Rómulo Bettancourt and the short-lived presidency of Gallegos (1945-1948) and again flourished under the nationalist policies of the AD in the years 1958-1961. If anyone explores the background of Bettancourt, you would find several familiar names including that of Salvador Allende. In fact, Chavez has not done anything not already found in Bettancourt´s interesting book: Venezuela--Politica y Petroleo.

Here is a brief biographical sketch:
http://www.venezuelatuya.com/biografias/betancourt.htm

Did anyone know that Bettancourt undertook exile in Havana between 1949-1955 and was very much in the circle of "reform through revolutionary action"?
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the former."

Albert Einstein
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#19
Are we positive governments create wealth? That seems to be the gist of this discussion and that this one in Venezuela only generated it for rich folks,so now we have Chavez who will generate it for the majority of poor folks.

I really cannot believe after the 20th century experience with Marxism/Socialism and Fascism(the economic basis John has amply posted about) and the fact that all the posters on this thread are intelligent that anyone here is serious.

Governments can succeed in destroying wealth and freedom,governments cannot create wealth,they never have been able to create wealth and never will be able to create wealth. They can steal money and hand it to someone,but they cannot create new wealth.

What will and probably already is happening in Venezuela is the middle class to the wealthy are moving their assets out of Venezuela for investment elsewhere,Chavez can steal their fixed assets,but he can't do anything but run the businesses into the ground.
So,the state and thus "the people"(most of whom will never see the first cent as always just like in Cuba) will get a one time windfall from their theft.

I suppose the argument can be made that Chavez will allocate oil revenues to help his "the people" base more than the previous government,but it appears to me he is offering Venezuela's oil revenues to his ideological friends across the globe,to include Iran and the increase to "the people" won't be all that.

After all,the government costs will soar from this man's ideology and I predict the truly poor Venezuelan will be poorer in 2012 than he is today. Given enough time,he will drive that nation into the ground just like Castro has Cuba.

For whatever reason,all South Americans have this propensity towards socialism,and yet their societies continue to SUCK compared to Canada and America and the relative distribution of wealth for all,when will men learn??????????
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#20
drgonzaga Wrote:I was struck by b5d's assertion (or assumption):
Quote:Then how about politics, [democracy is] the most virtuous form of politics, whether or not that politics includes a government.
That is a perspective diametrically opposed to the premise of the Constitutional Fathers. Their assumption moved from the premise that politics corrupts even the most virtuous. Further, they understood that government and power inevitably generated decadence and ate away at virtue hence government was to be constrained and fixed and the principal purpose of politics was the assertion of virtue against inherent decadence [see J. G. Pocock's The Machiavellian Moment].

The bane of factions [Madison's code description] was politics and the process itself was corrupting.
On the contrary, the ability to discuss opposing viewpoints is one of the things that has made our civilization great.

As to democracy vs. the republican ideas of the Founders - democracy is indeed the smallest form of government - not because of legal constraints on its size, but because the laws of public opinion constrain it. Of course there is an attitude that if something's not written somewhere it must not exist, but the laws of public opinion are just as constant as the laws of economics, and they tend towards stepping on the least possible amount of toes.
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