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Death Penalty Bruhaha
#21
Quote:That is false. If you can't acknoweledge this than this debate is over. Dictators have protected their regimes by installing fear. Now you're grasping at straws. You haven't addressed my point of demobilizing murders. Mobsters have called in hits from within prisons.

Um, no its not. Third World dictatorships have much more rampant crime than America does. Most Third World countries have much stricter penalties - such as detaining people without trial, torture, etc. - yet also have far more crime. The most crime-free countries in the world - Scandinavian countries, Japan, much of Western Europe before they began receiving poor Muslims - also have the most lenient penalties.

Howmany dictatorships have lasted 220 years, as the American democracy has? How many dictatorships have managed to last longer than 50 years? How can you possibly believe fear is an effective long-term detterent when most autocratic governments are incredibly unstable? Fear can work, but its really the least effective option for maintaining power.
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#22
Anon but they don't confront the regimes. The incentive of fear is against confronting the regime not against crime. In fact these regimes would rather have their opposition whipe themselves out than confront them, because the crime is a result of the regime's control over their lives and the economy.

However forget about dictators because I know you want to focus on them. You don't want to focus on my question. Why give murderers the opportunity to kill someone else? They can't kill again if they are dead. Tell me can they kill from the grave?
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#23
Quote:Anon but they don't confront the regimes. The incentive of fear is against confronting the regime not against crime. In fact these regimes would rather have their opposition whipe themselves out than confront them, because the crime is a result of the regime's control over their lives and the economy.

Right, but you were the one who used dictatorships as a supposed reason why fear works as a deterrent against crime.

Quote:However forget about dictators because I know you want to focus on them. You don't want to focus on my question. Why give murderers the opportunity to kill someone else? They can't kill against if they are dead. Tell me can they kill from the grave?

They can't kill innocent people if they're in jail for the rest of their lives, either. Killing them instead of just putting them in jail doesn't make any significant difference in terms of decreasing crime.
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#24
Quote:Right, but you were the one who used dictatorships as a supposed reason why fear works as a deterrent against crime.

No I didn't ,stay in school and take a reading comprehension course. I said dictators use fear to prevent action against them. That was my example to prove fear works. Now fear of death and imprisonment works in America in keeping decent people from commiting serious crimes. I know I'm being tough on you but I don't like people spinning my statements and you're smarter than this.

Quote:They can't kill innocent people if they're in jail for the rest of their lives, either. Killing them instead of just putting them in jail doesn't make any significant difference in terms of decreasing crime.

Yes yes yes I caught him hook line and sinker. Thats where I wanted anon to go.

Two killers in a sophisticated plan kill an inmate, could have been a guard, someone innocent visiting someone:

http://www.krcg.com/news/news_story.aspx?id=22293

These guys did escape and killed a cop after they did:

http://www.courttv.com/trials/texas7/newbury.html

Another guy escaped by beating a guard, you suppose he can kill someone while he's outside?:

http://www.dailytexanonline.com/media/storage/paper410/news/2002/02/18/WorldNation/Convicted.Murderer.Escapes.From.Prison-503646.shtml?norewrite200612152251&sourcedomain=www.dailytexanonline.com

Look he escaped a federal prison, if he isn't dead yet you suppose he could hurt someone?:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/05/louisia...index.html

Look at this another guy escaped, maybe if he wasn't caught he would have continued a decent life?:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,213169,00.html

Another cop dies because a thug was still alive:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,2096...onal/crime

You supposed he'll cross the pond?:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/artic...article.do

Hey even those who say, treatment not death should look at this:

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/2...m=storyrhs

Anon you put your faith in a cage? I don't think they can't kill if they are dead. Unless they come back as zombies. Shock
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#25
Quote:No I didn't ,stay in school and take a reading comprehension course. I said dictatos use fear to prevent action against them. That was my example to prove fear works. Now fear of death and imprisonment works in America in keeping decent people from commiting serious crimes. I know I'm being tough on you but I don't like people spinning my statements and you're smarter than this.

Uh huh, but I also said that most dictatorships don't last after the dictator is gone. Democracies last for hundreds of years - kind of putting a hole in the idea that fear is the best way to control people. Furthermore, there is still my example of countries with lenient punishments being nearly crime-free, versus most Third World countries with extremely strict punishments being rampant with crime. Disproving your belief that fear is the best deterrent.

And you're not being tough on me so much as you're shifting your argument continously.



Quote:Yes yes yes I caught him hook line and sinker. Thats where I wanted anon to go.

Your examples are the equivalent of posting articles about lightning killing people, and saying that therefore deaths by lightning are a serious problem. How about some statistics showing the percentage of criminals put in jail for life who manage to somehow kill innocents after being put in jail, rather than posting isolated, extremely rare examples of inmates escaping?
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#26
For the last time I never said fear was the best way to control people. Fear of death or imprisonment serves as a disincentive to murder when it comes to decent people. Controlling people involves much more than stopping a few murders. If my points are too sophisticated for you to understand, lets drop the dictator argument and stick to the murders.

Quote:Your examples are the equivalent of posting articles about lightning killing people, and saying that therefore deaths by lightning are a serious problem. How about some statistics showing the percentage of criminals put in jail for life who manage to somehow kill innocents after being put in jail, rather than posting isolated, extremely rare examples of inmates escaping?


Lightning killing people in something like a billion to one chance. However 17,000 Americans are murdered a year. You may want a statistic showing a majority but even if only 1% of the time the murderer escaped and murdered, that is still people who died because you put more value in the life of a murderer than those who could be the next victim.
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#27
But fear *isn't* an incentive to prevent decent people from killing. Once again, my examples of how the most crime-free societies have the most lenient punishments show that. And the fact that stricter punishments don't result in a lower crime-rate also shows it. As does the fact that America has the most people in prison of all the Western countries, yet also the highest crime-rate. How exactly do you account for that if fear is in any way a good deterrent for preventing crime?

*You're* the one who brought up dictatorships as an example of why fear is supposedly the best deterrent. Now you want to drop it when you realize what a poor point it is.

As for your articles about prisoners escaping, they really are completely useless for the debate. You're trying to prove that prisoners in jail are still able to kill. This has no real relation to the 17,000 people killed in America each year, unless you're trying to say that of those people, a large percentage are killed by prisoners who have been put in jail and yet escaped(which is a ridiculous point if you are trying to prove it).
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#28
Anon,

If you're right,explain how Saddam Hussein held Iraq together without the choaotic scene we have today. It was nothing but fear driven by real brutality and random violence perped on the people before they acted like the jackas.ses they are.
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#29
Right, but we see what a piss-poor long-term strategy was now that Hussein is gone... It was a solution but really the worst one.

Plus, it really didn't decrease crime. In a regime such a Hussein's, crime is endorsed by teh system itself. In other words, "corruption".
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#30
Anon,

I partially agree with you. However,it is fact that there was no chaos and without that heavy hand there is chaos.

I posit Iraq is 1 of those societies where extreme harshness is needed to control the hyenas who haven't enough virtue to live like normal humans.

Do not misunderstand me here,Saddam meant evil and selfish desires were his motivation,but even a leader of virtue in Iraq MUST use extreme harshness evenly to control that bunch of jakcas.ses,we have too much evidence to the contrary now.

I would say much the same for various peoples. Rwanda in the mid 1990s could have used a harsh,but virtuous leader,,the Congo,Sierra Leone. There are probably 50 more honestly.

We cannot be nice to extremely evil humans who act like animals,I think they're removal from earth is the best bet for the innocent. Does it deter the next guy? If applied consistently,it must as Saddam controlled his nation via such methodolgy(and extreme torture and random violence that had the effect of scaring everyone,even the innocent,this is Stalinism) and let us assume it does not deter new violence,it for sure removes the old perp from any question of new predatory activity and relieves society from upkeep of the animal like human.

We Americans tend to lambaste all men who act harshly in history,but when there is little virtue among the people,it is the most virtuous way to protect the innocent,in fact the only way,IMO.
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#31
Answer this question anon, now that I have proven to you that killers can and do escape prison. They have killed after escaping. Even if it only happens rarely. You would risk the life of a rare victim by not killing the killer?
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#32
For the record,most convicted first degree murderers are PAROLED. Very rare for a man to actually die of old age in prison in the subjective states of America.
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#33
Quote:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Answer this question anon, now that I have proven to you that killers can and do escape prison. They have killed after escaping. Even if it only happens rarely. You would risk the life of a rare victim by not killing the killer?

For this to be effective we'd have to kill all convicted murders, not just the really bad ones. Furthermore, considering the number of men on death row who have been exonerated after being convicted, I'd say the number of innocent people killed by the death penalty far exceeds the number of people killed by escaped inmates.
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#34
Not true very few have been exonerated. Well you've reached the point where the facts need to be ignored or mischaracterized so I'll take it as a victory. You value killers over their potential victims.
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#35
Anon,

The exoneration of convicted murderers via DNA makes it all the more likely today we get it right. Today of all eras in human history,we can be more certain the defendant is the perp.

However,failures plague mankind and always have. If human frailty is the determinant,then we need not have human government.
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