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May be Time to Leave Iraq
#21
I've been giving thought to the idea of inviting Iran and Syria in for a security role and then turning the insurgents on them. A reversal of roles in which we support militias killing of their people while we perhaps get ready to strike them in their home bases. I'm not saying this is the solution but it is an idea worth considering.
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#22
The only reason I posted this thread was I feared we may not be capable of furthering the process due to Shiite recalcitrance,not because of Sunni or Shiite terrorism.

If the Shiite as a whole wish for a Sadr free elective government,crushing the Sunni jackals and independence from Iran,I am all for maintaining our presence until they don't need it anymore,for the record.
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#23
some emirs captured.
Brought to my attention by Iraq the model
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#24
I'm wondering what the odds are that the really prominent Saudis or other prominent Arabs can buy their way out ... even with the (as yet) U.S. backed Iraqi government in place. If it happens it basically puts us on the same level with the other kidnapper/ransomers in that region. If it happens (on any level) it's a death knell for our efforts.
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#25
And so the the final Vietmamization of this war really begins ... actually it began in early November.

I think the idea of a "last chance" actually had some popular support. But apparently it has very little 'political' support. The main question for our enemies out of this is exactly when to hit us again. I figure it will come sometime during mid-pullout ... when we appear weakest ... and most confused ... disoriented.
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#26
Yak,

I have seriously begun to wonder what our role is now? With the current government being their second one and both appear hopelessly Islamist,I now openly question why we stay?

Sadr is fairly prominent in the new government as the old,the Sunnis no more can regain rule than I can become their king,the Sunnis will do well not to be eradicated.

I just don't see WHAT our goal is now. The Sunnis aren't going to rule and the Shiites have made it clear they are as Islamists. What is our role at this point?
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#27
Here's my two bits(keep in mind, I do not support the war, but if I did this is the strategy I think would work):

For months now, politicians have been blabbering that "we need a political solution, not a military one". The problem is there can be no political solution without disarming all the militias in the country - the military solution. A government that does not have a near monopoly on violence is not legitimate. This is common sense, yet because we don't wish to kill hundreds of thousands if not millions of Iraqis, as well as losing thousands of our men, we don't want to admit this reality.

To win a war, you disable the enemies ability to wage war. You don't create a democracy with the enemy and then expect them to lay down their weapons.
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#28
I continue to call a spade a spade in direct contradiction to the mainstream media.

The conflict in Iraq is minor and not worth the coverage lavished upon it. Almost all of Iraq is safer than most U.S. cities, and in only a few hot spots do the insurgent gang-bangers cause any mischief at all. What is the difference between an insurgent incident that injures a few innocent people and the ubiquitous drive-by shootings of the Bloods or Crypts? The perps retreat into the crowds and the local constabulary is impotent to catch them. In the U.S., we don't worry about our government falling from such incidents, why does our media push a civil war/uprising in Iraq at the same level of violence?
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#29
Palladin Wrote:Yak,

I have seriously begun to wonder what our role is now? With the current government being their second one and both appear hopelessly Islamist,I now openly question why we stay?

Sadr is fairly prominent in the new government as the old,the Sunnis no more can regain rule than I can become their king,the Sunnis will do well not to be eradicated.

I just don't see WHAT our goal is now. The Sunnis aren't going to rule and the Shiites have made it clear they are as Islamists. What is our role at this point?
Well Palladin if you say Saddam and his Sunni Party was Islamist everybody in the Middle East will laugh at you.
Saddam and his party was even more secular than the current Turkish administration. His Foreign Minister Tariq Aziz was Christian and there were several Shiite Cabinet Ministers in his administration. He was as bruttal against Al-Qaida members as he was against the Shiites.

However, now USA will have an Islamist Administration established in Iraq before they pull out. I heard that even Hezbollah Shiite Leader of Lebanon started blaming execution of Saddam to the USA and calling for all anti American forces to unite for a common struggle.
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#30
Palladin Wrote:What is our role at this point?

The easiest possible 'political' solution would be to walk away and blame the outcome on someone else. That's why people like Edwards find themselves spouting off opportunistic little sound bytes about the "McCain Doctrine". I just listened to an interview from a while back with some soldiers over there that were complaining that they still believed they could finish the job ... but U.S. politicians would deny them the opportunity. They expressed their concern that fatigue and the desire for "instant gratification" would end up half assing the job. While I'm certain that it would be very gratifying for someone like Edwards & Co to finally be able to say "See!! I told ya so!!", I don't believe that the outcome will be all that benign.

The violence in Iraq is driven by extremists. I realize that at some point it's necessary to cut our losses, but are you really prepared to turn this conflict over to them? It may be destined that Iraq will become a battleground in a proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia ... but I see resisting that ... avoiding that as in our interest. Our role is to allow the Iraqis to realize that they still have the opportunity to be a nation ... rather than simply cannon fodder for the various violent extremist clans. It may already be a mute point. A majority of our politicos have apparently already decided that we've been defeated. And there in lies the "political solution'.
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#31
Kamil,

You misunderstood my post. I called the current guys Islamists.

Yak,

This government invited certain folks to observe Saddam's execution. It seems they were Sadrists. I think it is clear Sadr is promient in this government. They have no intentions of fighting Sadr,they ARE Sadr.

I simply do not have a clue today why an American soldier should die in Iraq??? For what,to protect Sadr's position? The Sunnis CAN'T rule again,that goes without saying and the government are close to Sadr.

What are we doing now? Providing Sadr dead Americans in his quest to kill more Sunni? This has become insane. I was all supportive so long as I felt the Sunni might re-establish rule OR just to give the locals a strong shot at protecting an elective government,but now that we see the people have opted for Sadrist mentality,what honor or benefit is in it for America at this point?

William,

I agree with you,but 1 dead Yank is unwarranted if we're assisting Sadr's hegemony over that nation.
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