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Thailand, Coup d'etat
#21
John L Wrote:
Monsieur Le Tonk Wrote:
John L Wrote:
Monsieur Le Tonk Wrote:
WmLambert Wrote:Was this a non-Muslim takeover?
Indeed Gen Sonthi is a Muslim and someone who has been trying to address the problems of Southern Thailand with a little more thought than Thaksin. He recently sought to open a dialogue with PULO the main separatist group and is keen to implement the recommendations made by the National Reconciliation Commission.

Oh My Gosh! Welcome back Pepe. Don't tell me that you miss my me?
Miss you? But of course John S2

Well, in order to get the full dose of my witt and wisdom, you will have to come here. I am through with the Bear Pit.

BTY, I did stop by momentarily a couple of times, and I note that traffic is greater here than there. Interesting, considering that it has almost twice the registered members.

Anyway, good to see you here. We need more intelligent opposites. Only Fit' is a fitting opponent. It gets boring not having anyone with which to intellectually spar. S6
Ah! The Pit!
Sadly it's become a forum for the demented, intent on telling ever more bizarre stories of Muslim and Hispanic bogeymen, a mutually reassuring vicious circle of the xenophobic.

Work is busy at the moment, but maybe I'll find a home here, though AIJ is far more Americancentric than the Pit used to be.
"Common sense is not so common" - Voltaire
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#22
Welcome, Voltaire. I infer you and John have a history, and you're outré Americancentric, neh?
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#23
WmLambert Wrote:Welcome, Voltaire. I infer you and John have a history, and you're outré Americancentric, neh?
Thanks!
John and I have sparred a little in the Bear Pit. That forum was an offshoot from a Thai forum and had a more eclectic community of posters. Just glancing around this forum there seem to be few non-Americans. So maybe there's room for well travelled European who might see the world from a slightly different perspective.

MLT
"Common sense is not so common" - Voltaire
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#24
b5b,

I did and do support the removal of Hussein from office. Christians are taught in Scripture to support THEIR government,not the government of those desiring to murder us or coerce us.

That's the difference.

Thai is in Thailand and as a Christian is to be supportive of that leadership. It is not the role of a Christian to attempt to countermand what God has ordained for his governance and it is taught from one end of Scripture to the other that all human authority is there due to His desire for it to be there.

IF I were an Iraqi,I would NOT have attempted to overthrow Hussein,but as an American,I am thankful he is history.
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#25
Thank you for those remarks in the last post, Palladin.

The Thais, both the Buddhists and the Muslims, support General Sonthi's coup. The current latest news is that Sonthi was forced into doing a Tuesday evening coup because the duly elected dictator, Thaksin, had his own coup planned for the following day, when his people would start bloodshed during the non-violent protests against him scheduled for Wednesday. The story sounds very likely.

I have mixed feelings about how the Thais did the coup, but it's not my place to judge Buddhists or Muslims. I'm confident that Thailand will be better off under this army coup, than the coup Thaksin would have done.
I'm often wrong. But I'm not always wrong!
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#26
Life goes on in Thailand, indeed. Yesterday arrived and left the average 300,000 tourists, 95% of which are men, 95% of which are driven by libido. Decicedly a better force than, say, patriotism. All bars in sin city were open as they were on the evening of the coup and on the following holiday, booze, rock&roll and carnal desires everywhere. Nobody cares which crook governs. Late night I walked the beach road on the search for a girl, but accidentally, the mayor decided an occasional clean up and had his police and security chase the hookers of. Not the thugs, dealers, pimps, pickpockets, robbers and other criminals who beautify the place in great numbers. When I sit there having a smoke a pick up stops and some ten teens jump down, over the road and attack two other thugs with sticks and poles, less than half a minute later they board another pick up and were gone. Police looked too and did exactly nada. Gang criminality, a great problem here. Not long ago one of few sports heros of Thailand, a jet-ski world champion retired after a few shots in the head. As we learned afterwards, he and his team saw themselves as a gang too. Sin city has about 300 murders a year, a lot for a population of 200,000.
Does not really matter who makes his money by governing the country, social problems and right-wing politics that cause this horrible criminality will never be healed. And leave me alone with that few terrorist clowns at the south, they are a very, very, very insignificant inconvinience.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#27
But, Jomtien beach in Pattaya isn't really Thailand. 8)

Seriously, if anybody will quickly go to Yahoo front page and look for the Thailand coup photos, it's almost like San Francisco with the Hippies. But it's Bangkok on the first day of the coup: smiling, peaceful young soldiers with flowers in their rifles, posing for photos atop tanks and armored personnel carriers. Smiling Thai civilians thanking the soldiers.

It's surreal, but yes, sir, it's real.
I'm often wrong. But I'm not always wrong!
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#28
Yes, it's an entity of its own. Sodom, I'd like the fundamentalists here visit it, but I guess they rather keep their desires to themselves. I'm having a field day reading the Bangkok Post, as much left as a paper in Thailand can be. Always been a critic of Thaksin, Bush and Blair. Today's Postbag is delicious literature.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/23Sep2006_news99.php
Quote:Bogus champions of democracy
I find it pretty irritating that the United States is condemning our coup when their own government was taken over some time ago by militarists who have constantly frightened the populace, bullied their critics, spied on everyone, started two wars which have killed tens of thousands, operated secret prisons, tortured people, and denied people the right of habeas corpus, etc, all in the name of fighting terrorism and defending democracy. The fear-mongering, illegal and bullying actions of this military junta wearing civilian suits in the US is far more damaging to the ideals of democracy in the world than any coup here could ever be. And it is we who should be reviewing our relations with them, because it is a big black mark on our history that Thaksin sacrificed some of our brave soldiers when he cooperated with them in the illegal occupation of Iraq.
Quote:Ignorant White House
So the Bush administration condemns the coup. The US is again showing ignorance in dictating policy to a foreign government without bothering to study the situation. They talk about democracy but do they know what it means? Thaksin was destroying the democratic system in this country. He was intimidating dissenters and using his power to discredit his opponents while maintaining his popularity through money and propaganda among the rural poor. At the time of the coup, Thailand was on the verge of violence and was no longer able to select a government by general election. It is time the US started recognising the difference between real democracy and corrupt manipulators of the political system. It is time the Bush administration started wanting what is good for the people of the world and not only what serves their own immediate interests.
Quote:Perfect timing So
Thaksin has fled to London, where he bought a mansion only weeks ago. I only hope he is politely asked by the British to find somewhere else to hide. To quote Thaksin: "On my way here [to New York] I was prime minister. On my way back I'm jobless... If they don't want me to work, it's okay. I won't." Well, excuse me Mr Thaksin, you were not prime minister; you were a caretaker. Your sophistry knows no bounds. Jobless? Jobless, Mr Thaksin? Your choice of words is astonishing. You didn't do a day's work in your life, save for robbing the Kingdom of Thailand to such an extent that the military had to step in to oust you.
To their credit, the military's move was faultless, expertly timed to cause Thaksin maximum international embarrassment; they waited until he was out of the kingdom at a high-profile UN meeting and then they swooped. Now that's what I call military planning. Thaksin, you are history. A foot-in-the-mouth note in history. To see pictures of Thai and foreigners handing smiling troops red roses and yellow ribbons warms the heart. And not a drop of blood spilt. We must hope that similar bloodless coups happen on Capitol Hill and at Downing Street; they are sorely needed in more places than just Thailand.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#29
Thai,

The Thais elected Thaksin to office,are you positive you've polled those in the countryside? From my information,the man is wildly popular there and they are the majority.

I assume you and Quad like him because he will give the terrorists their demands in the south?
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#30
Palladin Wrote:Thai,

The Thais elected Thaksin to office,are you positive you've polled those in the countryside? From my information,the man is wildly popular there and they are the majority.

I assume you and Quad like him because he will give the terrorists their demands in the south?
Thanks for asking about the poll; that's an important question. I read the poll again today, and it claimed the northern provinces were even more relieved to have this whole scandal out of the way, or rather Thaksin out of the way. Yes, it's surprising. But I never believe Thai statistics, especially with censorship. We don't know.

Your assumption, however, is wrong. I, for one, as a foreigner and as a Christian pacifist, suspect that this Thai Muslim general whose loyalty is to the crown, will LISTEN to the grievances (not the unreasonable demands) of these southerners. The Bangkok elite didn't listen, any more than George Bush stays up all night worrying about the poor folks in Appalachia or the ghettos of Wash-DC.

I'm not pro-Muslim or pro-Buddhist. I notice however, that some generals seem to be MORE hesitant to shed military blood for no reason, if the solution can be reached without bloodshed. The death toll so far in this 'military coup' is zero.

Besides, he can't give in to a ragtag, hidden, cryptic, private organization that doesn't even talk yet. Not yet.
I'm often wrong. But I'm not always wrong!
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#31
Thai,

The word I am receiving is Thaksin was very unpopular in Bangkok and within military and business circles,extremely popular in rural regions and according to Stratfor,they do make up the majority.
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#32
Palladin Wrote:Thai,

The word I am receiving is Thaksin was very unpopular in Bangkok and within military and business circles,extremely popular in rural regions and according to Stratfor,they do make up the majority.
Yes, that's correct. Anybody that Thaksin's party paid off (bribed) were his allies. In rotten corrupt right wing ballot fraud, he paid far more money to stuff the ballot boxes for his right wing/business/populist party, so he got the majority, especially in the rural areas except the south. He just didn't care about the south, perhaps because most of the southerners are non-violent Muslims; I don't know. His thugs paid the uneducated farmers with cash, booze, political favors, and populist programs that were poorly planned, often unexecuted, and improperly financed.

Anyway, here's the statistic, for what it's worth: [quoting from the poll by the Bangkok Post paper] Right after the coup, a survey conducted by Suan Dusit Poll on the 20th of September [the day after the late evening coup] among 2,019 from various occupations nationwide found that 83.9% were for the takeover...surprisingly, more people in the provinces supported the coup - 86.3% of those respondents, compared to their counterparts in Bangkok at 81.6%.

I'm guessing that the small number of southerners, agreeing with the coup and Thaksin's removal, are lumped together with the Thaksin old supporters in the rural north and northeast.
I'm often wrong. But I'm not always wrong!
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#33
Quote:I assume you and Quad like him because he will give the terrorists their demands in the south?
Terrorists, terrorist, terrorist, cannot hear it anymore. Palladin, please try to understand: death toll by terrorism since 2004 is 1,700 people. That's four provinces in the South, out of 80 - 90 in the whole country. Death toll by murder each year in the whole of the country, apr. 30,000. Now do the maths.
Thailand, that seem to be either Southern terrorism or Tsunami. Actually, more foreigners in Thailand lose their lives each year to criminality or the completely insane traffic (est.more than 40,000 deaths/year) than did in the once in a life time tsunami.
This of course is not of interest to right-wingers, not here, not in America. You rather burn money for your terrorist-ghost chases and dumb propaganda than to attack real problems. Worse, you need the cause of criminality, social injustice, in order to thrive. And you need to distract from it.
Therefore, I guess you'll keep your 'terror in Thailands South' prayer wheel turning.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#34
Reading another web site just now, I found several first hand reports from foreign teachers of English (like Jesse, the Canadian who got killed there, last week). Jesse's neighbor has fled back to the USA, which he says is a terrible place, but he needs to recover from the trauma.

The other reports were from teachers in Hat Yai and other parts of Songklha province, where all the bombs went off last time. Muslims and Buddhists walking around together, all happy that the coup removed prime minister Toxin Shitawatra. No hints of Al Kyeeda or of Sodumb Hasbeen.

But you wouldn't want to believe eyewitness accounts from Americans and Brits and Ozzies and Canadians and Kiwis who express themselves well in English. You'd rather believe crazies in Topeka or Neuuw Yahwk City who've never even set foot in Asia.

We're doing fine here. Come on over and enjoy the tourism. You might even decide the quality of life is better here than it is in Kenosha or Muskogee. And, speaking of Oklahoma, I worked there when we had a bomb scare, in downtown Oklahoma City, in the federal building. The fire warden came running down the sidewalk yelling, "Get further away!! Two blocks away for a bomb!" He was walking across the street from another federal building under construction: The Alfred Murrah Federal Courthouse. Terrorists, right there in Oklahoma, American citizen terrorists, American armed forces veteran terrorists. Weren't they right wing American terrorists, too?
I'm often wrong. But I'm not always wrong!
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#35
Fit2BThaied Wrote:...And, speaking of Oklahoma, I worked there when we had a bomb scare, in downtown Oklahoma City, in the federal building. The fire warden came running down the sidewalk yelling, "Get further away!! Two blocks away for a bomb!" He was walking across the street from another federal building under construction: The Alfred Murrah Federal Courthouse. Terrorists, right there in Oklahoma, American citizen terrorists, American armed forces veteran terrorists. Weren't they right wing American terrorists, too?
Funny you should mention the OK City bombing. Before you keep believing what you apparently now think to be true about the OK City bombing, I strongly suggest you read the book by Jayna Davis with an open mind and see if you still believe the "official story" put forth by our FBI and many in our govt. And she wasnt motivated by any kind of partisan politics before, during or after her investigation, either...her book doesnt put forth any kind of partisan conspiracy that is disputing and trying to silence/ignore her findings.

http://jaynadavis.com/

And, as the website indicates, there are some very credible and knowledgable people who back up her story...or who would at least like those in the US government on both sides of the political aisle to "come clean" and get to the real truth of the OK City bombing.

As she notes in her book, which I have recently read, the truth on this still hasnt come out because many of those who "dropped the ball" on this have way too much to lose politically and/or personally if the real story were to come out. It is simply much less "messy" for many to let the story stand as the bombing being due to a "lone former US military renegade ultra conservative whacko and his buddy" being pissed off at the US govt for the Waco debacle, among other things.

Maybe one day the real truth about the OK City bombing --- and all the former Iraqi military turned-political-asylum-seekers-after-the-Gulf-War being in "cahoots" with McVeigh and Nichols --- will be proven. But in any case, the evidence in the aforementioned book is very well-documented and substantiated, and puts forth a plausible scenario.

But one really needs to read the book and see all the evidence contained in the book before one claims this is nothing but a whacko conspiracy theory. I dont make a habit of subscribing to so-called conspiracy theories, but this one isnt your run-of-the-mill, lacking-in-evidence conspiracy theory, either. There appears to be much more to "the story" than popular opinion, and the official govt take, asserts.

Fit, I dont know what Thailand has in the way of free libraries in case you dont want to spend $$$ to buy the book. But it should be out in paperback (thus cheaper S1 ) by now, if you can find it to buy in Thailand at all. And for those in the US who have access to a good library, I found this book at my public library here in the US with no problem.
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