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Kissinger warns of "war of civilizations"
#81
God told the early Jews to commit genocide.

One tribe tricked another into circumcizing themselves in order to join with their tribe, and then killed all the men while they were "recovering".

It is violent.
"I detest the man who hides one thing in the depths of his heart and speaks forth another"
-Homer
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#82
Baldar,

That was not Judaism,that is whatever you want to called Christianity before Jesus' Incarnation. Jesus of Nazareth is the fulfillment of all the Old Testament prophecies.
Pre incarnate Christ is who ordered those massacres.

Same one gonna do it bigger at Armageddon.




I think you may err when you try and use Biblical Scripture as necessarily the basis for Judaism. As with Islam,it takes from the Old Testament in form,but aoften not in substance.

Example,Abraham the alleged father of their faith is said in Genesis to have been saved by "believing the testimony of God",not some ritual or human endeavors. The Judaism doesn't remotely understand some of their own Holy Day rituals.

What does the Passover teach? That we are saved by the blood of the innocent lamb as our substitute,but that is not what THEY teach salvation is,they teach it is via living a good moral life as Muslims teach.

Islam made the same errors,seeing the face but not the inner meaning of much of the OT,IMO of course,all this is IMO. The New Testament teaches us that Abraham is the father of OUR faith in Christ,not a faith in human endeavors to appease God.
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#83
I am not the one using the Old Testament as the basis for Judaism, The Jews are, you might want to read the translation of the Torah, its the first several books of the Old Testament with the killing in it.
"I detest the man who hides one thing in the depths of his heart and speaks forth another"
-Homer
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#84
Baldar and others, perhaps Palladin's understanding of Judaism's roots is confused. Hey Pal, haven't you spent countless posts on here, reminding me how righteously the pre-incarnate Jesus blessed his Father's commands to kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, kill, etc? Admit it, Pal, you LOVE the Jewish violence of the Old Testament!

Yet, it must be added that the Old Testament is also filled with principles of shalom, peace. Jesus lived on the earth during a pacifist Jewish period in a violent, pagan, Roman empire. The Zealot political-Jewish party wanted Jesus to join them in overthrowing the empire violently, and Jesus refused.

Is anybody going to deny what the quoted excerpt said, that the early Christian church was pacifist? Okay, thanks. No argument.
I'm often wrong. But I'm not always wrong!
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#85
I would not say he is confused, Pallidin is clear, however he may be arguing from a distinctly different context than we are. In regard to Judaic origins.

Relilgion is a tough nut to crack since belief systems are some of the most relative things there are. (edited later)
"I detest the man who hides one thing in the depths of his heart and speaks forth another"
-Homer
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#86
Thai,

I admit openly,every command of God's that comes to fruition thrills me and I do believe all the Biblical Scriptures are Christ's Mind. Old and New.
In fact,Jesus endorsed the OT Sriptures and Paul often re-quoted them.

I take pleasure in the deaths of toponos Muslims today as I would have Amalekites back then. However,the greater pleasure(that these toponos animals don't afford us)would be to see them obey Christ and believe Jesus is The Christ.

Baldar,

The difference as I see it is the Old Testament is not a seperation from the New. I see the New as simply another convenant giving further revelation to beliving man,to me it is not as if the OT was NOT God's Word or is not. It is,it taught humanity of Christ before His incarnation. As such,I see the OT not as you do,but as valid God's infallible Word.

Therefore,when such things as the command to massacre Amalekites is given,it is given within God's perfect character. Much like I see it as God's Will the destruction of Nazi Germany and fascist Japan,"nnocents"died in droves there as well.
Lfe on earth is quite short,Christ controls human history,He hasn't overlooked any single human that may have believed in Christ but was killed before he could in war time scenarios.

Proper OTWorship then is pre incarnation Christianity(call it what you may). Judaism does NOT believe in many truths of the OT Scriptures,most significantly faith alone in The Father's testimony about His Son brings salvation. Abraham was saved by faith in The Father's Word,not in works,Judaism does NOT teach such doctrines.

In fact,Judaism teaches very similar things to Islam to be blunt in theology. Believe in God,live a good life,go to heaven,maybe.

Genesis 156 is of interest here. Yahweh had just told Abraham that through his loins the Messiah would eventually come. Abraham said,"I believe that" and was saved. Read it in the context.

Judaism doesn't teach anything remotely resembling that. No more than Islam or Hinduism do.

There were teachingsof Christ way before the Old Testament was even penned or Abraham born in the stellar constellations. Yet,today those who teach of messages in the stars teach a lie. I consider Judaism in the same light in it's overall message of works for salvation,perverting the truth of the OT as today's star gazers do the true message of Christ in the stars.

Incidentally,this stellar constellation doctrine has not been much taught in modern Churches,but England had one of the great minister's in human history named EW Bullinger. He wrote a work titled "The Gospel in The Stars" in the 19th century,outstanding work.

Incidentally,we created our nation by killing or controlling our adversaries,so do you see America as a violent theology as you do Judaism?
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#87
I see the Old Testament as an important part of Judaic history and it establishes the context and community of Jews. More to the point, even Christ acknowledged the God of the Old Testament was also the God of the new, that includes the genocide that god called upon them to do.

God does not change, but your description seems to show that God does change and that somehow the Old Testament can be dismissed because of the New Testament or Covenant. I disagree, otherwise Christ would not have followed the Old Testament code himself.

Quote:Incidentally,we created our nation by killing or controlling our adversaries,so do you see America as a violent theology as you do Judaism?

I see most nations as having a violent pattern within their history. Frankly of most of the history I have seen, Judaic history is better documented and therefore could or could not be more violent than the documented history of other nations.

Consider how the Parthians attempted to fight Rome, perhaps the biggest mass murder in history. Every Roman east of the Mediterranean was killed. Rome of course retaliated strongly, but it shows a question of brutality was neither unique to a people or necessarily as well (or poorly) documented.
"I detest the man who hides one thing in the depths of his heart and speaks forth another"
-Homer
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#88
Baldar,



" God does not change, but your description seems to show that God does change and that somehow the Old Testament can be dismissed because of the New Testament or Covenant. I disagree, otherwise Christ would not have followed the Old Testament code himself".

My English is pitiful,but I can't find how I could have given you this false idea. My entire post was that the NT was an extension of the OT and that Judaism does not share that view.

For accuracy,YES,I see the OT as God's Perfect and Accurate Word and the massacres we started discussing are seen by myself as Divine GOOD to further The Gospel back in that era. That's what all wars are for in fact,God uses violence to control evil folks who also use violence.

Allied violence was Good,Axis was bad,that deal with the Amalekites was no different from my perspective.

I agree that the OT and what it teaches was what caused Jewish culture(and ours incidentally),but Judaism is not a proper interpretation of the OT,IMO. That's all I meant by starting this argument actually. I think Judaism takes as much from the Talmud as the Pentateuch. And entirely misunderstands(as Islam does) most OT information.
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#89
OK, I can agree with you that "present" Judaic customs are not necessarily the same as the older Judaic customs, in fact the present system is only in place because it survived, not because it is the oldest or most correct.
"I detest the man who hides one thing in the depths of his heart and speaks forth another"
-Homer
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#90
Baldar, thanks for realizing that you did misinterpret Palladin's views concerning the two testaments. He appears to think that God's moral commands for humans didn't change at the death of Jesus. More radically, I think the commands changed drastically, from mere partial pacifism to absolute pacifism.

Palladin,
In this clash of civilizations, I get the impression that you support the idea that it's perfectly righteous to kill Muslims in order to keep modern Jews in greater Palestine-Israel. Yet, I'm beginning to wonder if the only Judaism you accept is a Christian Judaism, seen through a New Testament filter. Maybe you think that modern Jewish denominations (Orthodox, Reform, Conservative) don't follow the Law of Moses. Or you think modern Jews aren't much at all like Old Testament "Jews." Or, you think they're not good Jews because they don't have the proper faith in Christ. Yet, the modern nation of Israel was founded by modern Jews led by rabbis of those denominations. In fact, your last post smelled slightly anti-Semitic; maybe I'm misunderstanding you this time.
I'm often wrong. But I'm not always wrong!
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#91
Palladin: So you believe the Jews should be warlike and genocidal?

Perhaps they're heading back in the right direction, eh? S6
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#92
Baldar,

Yes,Judaism to me is not what Jews ever believed,so that was the misunderstanding there. To me,whatever one desires to call pre Incarnation Christianity is what they were when they were like Abraham.

Thai,

You definitely misunderstand me if you thought I am anti semitic. I do NOT respect any false religion,so I do not respect Judaism,but it does not mean I hate Jews who believe in it. I don't hate Muslims who believe in Islam and I would not be for killing a single one if they would leave us alone. I don't hate Hindus,either,but I see the religion as nonsense.

The only faith I respect is that Jesus is the Christ,the Son of God. Judaism says that is a lie. As do all other religions.

As far as modern Israel goes,I support the right of Jews to a state as I do support the right of Arabs to a state. If Jews were blasting Arabs in Baghdad,I would agree to support the Arabs killing those Jews.

I do think it is perfectly righteous(Divine Good) to kill any human anywhere that attacks innocents without provocation and I do not preclude Jews from this innocence.
So,yes,I think any Muslim ought to be killed who murders Jews in Israel and since this war is about 3000 years old,I think it is only common sense for the Jews to deport the Arabs far enough away from them to avoid repeats of the past terrorism.

Anon,

I think Jews ought to be like me. Or,like our WWII generation was,objective. Kill the enemy fast enough he re-thinks his evil plans,period. if that takes 1 dead or 1 billion dead is their choice,not mine.
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#93
Palladin Wrote:In fact,Judaism teaches very similar things to Islam to be blunt in theology. Believe in God,live a good life,go to heaven,maybe.
Are you sure you've got the chronology right? :lol:
Also this, I think, is illuminating read.
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#94
Thanks to ag for citing that interesting article. It reminds me how ignorant I must be about Islam, if all those experts are ignorant about Islam, too.

Deeds versus words: "By their fruit ye shall know them." "Love your enemy, so that you BE the children of God." "If you love me, keep my commandments."

The word of God versus Greek philosophy
1Corinthians, 1:22 to 25:
[22] For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom:
[23] But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
[24] But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
[25] Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

Palladin,
Thanks for clarifying that fine point: you're not against Jews; you're against Judaism, a religion for which you have no respect, even though it's the religion of the Old Testament, the religion that gave us Jesus. Do I have it right yet? Or are you referring to some personal definition of "Judiasm" or the Jewish religion, rather than the generally accepted definitions?

The article cited by ag, and this very conversation here, are good examples of how civilizations clash. Each civilization can't define the one they're clashing with, and it's very doubtful that any civiilization can define or understand itself. Communication breakdown.
I'm often wrong. But I'm not always wrong!
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#95
Thai,

No,Judaism is a religion that teaches salvation by works of fallen man,that is most certainly NOT what The OT teaches,quite the opposite.

It has no more to do with the SUBSTANCE of the Old Testament than Islam does,which also borrowed from the OT . Both religions have to do with the facade of the teachings of the OT,not the substance. The substance is and was CHRIST. Faith through Grace salvation.



Jesus said it was He whom Moses was discussing. Not another religion attempting to gain God's approbation through our righteousness as the Pharisees attempted and who are the architects of Judaism.
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#96
Ag,

I never tire of reading Spengler,but he's all over the place himself. Go back 3 years and you'll find him on each side of Iraq's fight for example.

Anyway,this one has a good point I assume about Islam. Allah is capricious? Does this mean that Islam teaches Allah has no certain immutable character traits and decides things based on whim or emotion?

I've long suspicioned Spengler was an atheist who thinks he understands Christianity as a cultural invention and Christian teachings as having been induced by culture instead of the opposite.

I will hand him this,we clearly do not understand our opponents. I was reading a George Will article the other day where he quoted GW Bush asking an aide,"Where is their George Washington,their John Adams"?#!!??%$#

Will's point was,"where is OURS if our current leader asked that about Iraq"? We are still violating Sun Tzu's first mandate,"Know your enemy".
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