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China & Russia to US: Butt Out!
#1
Interesting article today on a joint declaration by both China and Russia.

Quote:In a thinly veiled attack on perceived US efforts to dominate the world, Russia and China have teamed up to issue a declaration demanding respect for the right of all countries to develop free of outside interference.

The declaration was signed by presidents Vladimir Putin and Hu Jintao on the second day of a summit in Moscow on Friday. It denounces "the aspiration for monopoly and domination in international affairs" and calls for an end to "attempts to divide nations into leaders and those being led".

While not mentioning the US directly, the "Declaration on World Order in the 21st Century" left no doubt that Washington was its main target.

This seems to dovetail with what China is doing throughout it's area of influence. Seperate as many countries as possible from the US sphere and drive out the our influence. The very thing was applied with Australia this last year, but to no apparant impact.

If China is able to cement it's northern border, and possibly influence say, South Korea, they would have less area to concentrate.

And note the importance of Russia affirming China's right to retake Taiwan in exchange for here legitimate concerns in Chechnya.

This is clearly a one sided statement in that China receives all the overt points here. I wonder what Russia receives out of the bargain? Perhaps an arms purchaser? That would not concerm me all that much as Russian military technology is not all that advanced.
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
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#2
More nuclear assisstance? Perhaps nukes themselves? Unless there is a treaty banning that...
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#3
Gunnen4u Wrote:More nuclear assisstance? Perhaps nukes themselves? Unless there is a treaty banning that...

Probably not. They are both already in the nuclear club. I think China is taking advantage of Russia's Cultural Paranoid Schizophrenia . Perhaps Michael or bh can illuminate this here.
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#4
Quote:Russia and China Appear
To Chide U.S. in Statement

[..]

The two leaders gave an upbeat assessment on Russian-Chinese relations, which have flourished in recent years and were cemented in a border treaty ratified this year. "We have set a solid foundation for friendship, trust and cooperation for Russia and China for a long time to come," Mr. Putin said.

Moscow and Beijing dominate the Shanghai Cooperation Organization, a regional security grouping that also includes the ex-Soviet Central Asian nations of Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan and Tajikistan.

Uzbekistan's President Islam Karimov, facing Western criticism for his government's bloody suppression of a May uprising, has found staunch support in Moscow and Beijing.

After their meetings in Moscow, Messrs. Putin and Hu were due to meet again Tuesday at the SCO summit in Kazakhstan. "We are increasing coordination and cooperation on important regional and international issues, such as guaranteeing stability in Central Asia, the SCO, reform of the United Nations and the nuclear problem of the Korean Peninsula," Mr. Hu said.

The Russian and Chinese militaries are due to hold their first joint maneuvers later this year -- which some observers have seen as Russia's response to cooling relations with the U.S. and other Western nations.

China has purchased billions of dollars worth of fighters, missiles, submarines and destroyers after the Soviet collapse, becoming the main customer for struggling Russian defense industries. Now it is eager to tap into Russian oil and gas to fuel its booming economy, and has lobbied hard for priority access over Japan to an oil pipeline carrying Siberian crude to Asian markets.

[..]

---
Source: WSJ/Associated Press

The last paragraph summarizes a part of the bargain, with China as always looking for good connections to vital resources/commodities. I guess the buying from Russian defense industries is just to keep Russia happy, keeping the industry afloat and to push them a bit to keep developing new, although not that advanced, systems. We'll probably see more of these deals and statements now the US is moving its focus to Central and East Asia.
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#5
SCO **might** be emerging a WP replacement.

**might** because both Russia and China alternate between their pact-building and attempts to make a private deal with the US.

For example, Putin found it necessary to come out with support in Iraq right away, See for example here. Debka, IMHO, is wrong in the explanation: the reality is simply that both Russia and China would abandon their block if the US can be made to ignore them and concentrate on the other one.
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

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#6
IMHO military and political alliance between Russia and China is overrated. In fact both are playing against all. China for example decided to build railroad through Kazakhstan, Iran a Turkey to Europe. In fact they are rivals of Russia at least in Central Asia.
Read better about yesterday meeting in Kalinigrad. Its a very important part of political game.
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#7
Quote:And note the importance of Russia affirming China's right to retake Taiwan in exchange for here legitimate concerns in Chechnya.

And after the Taiwan issue is settled, China will start talking about 'historical' Chinese lands that are now part of the Russian Far East. I suggest Russia would do well to keep China at arm's length away.

-S
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#8
Stars & Stripes Wrote:
Quote:And note the importance of Russia affirming China's right to retake Taiwan in exchange for here legitimate concerns in Chechnya.

And after the Taiwan issue is settled, China will start talking about 'historical' Chinese lands that are now part of the Russian Far East. I suggest Russia would do well to keep China at arm's length away.

-S
Well, it's only possible if illegal Chinese immigrants here make a critical mass to trigger some kind of Yougoslavian variant.
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#9
Quote:And after the Taiwan issue is settled, China will start talking about 'historical' Chinese lands that are now part of the Russian Far East. I suggest Russia would do well to keep China at arm's length away.

I would find it hard for the Chinese to rationalize what is their land beyond a very long and large brick wall they build on their northern border. That would seem to indicate to me that everyone knows, and has known for thousands of years, just where the northern Chinese border is.

S1
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#10
Tezcatlipoca Wrote:That would seem to indicate to me that everyone knows, and has known for thousands of years, just where the northern Chinese border is.

S1
Amur region was returned to Russia in 1858.
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#11
bh Wrote:
Tezcatlipoca Wrote:That would seem to indicate to me that everyone knows, and has known for thousands of years, just where the northern Chinese border is.

S1
Amur region was returned to Russia in 1858.

I contend that this will not stop China from attempting to assert it's claims and use blustering language to force their will.

Note that the typical Chinese method is to use harsh language as though their position is ALWAYS right and sustainable. It may even work with the Russians eventually, if Russia is not vigilant.

And who knows, perhaps Siberia will have been set up as a seperate country by then.
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#12
Agree, that's why I repeat - Russia like other countries has no friends. China can be an ally under some historical circumstances. BTW look on the map, China and Russia have common border on far East only. Central Siberia have a border with Mongolia. Mongolia is buffer between Russia and China.
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#13
China and Russia have more dissonance between them than harmony, and left to their historic trends will drift apart. Likewise, China never makes bids for international dominance - but curls back into an inevitable fetal position time after time and looks within its own borders for the be-all to existence.

Navel-gazers like China are too self-absorbed to want to lead the world. To them, it is us vs. them, and them never becomes a part of us.
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#14
bh Wrote:Agree, that's why I repeat - Russia like other countries has no friends. China can be an ally under some historical circumstances. BTW look on the map, China and Russia have common border on far East only. Central Siberia have a border with Mongolia. Mongolia is buffer between Russia and China.

I disagree. Russia and the US have the most potential for allies than any other country Russia can begin to find. The only problem is that Russia has yet to realize this, as it is just recently come out of a many tyrannical centuries. It will take time for them to fully understant just what the principles of Free Enterprise, and Liberty Really happen to be.

I have patience. YOu will come around, I am sure.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#15
Quote:Russia and the US have the most potential for allies than any other country Russia can begin to find.
Tend to agree. If they (as a single and independent entity) will be around long enough. Russia is dying, John. Any assembly of semi-static (like demographics, productivity, work ethic, etc) parameters points in that direction. The only thing that keeps them afloat now is the oil price. Some of the parameters are true for a bunch of other countries as well, but not all together and with such negative trends.
It still might be able to turn around, but with the passage of time without changes in secular trends it will be more and more difficult. And if the oil price drops.....

P.S. By semi-static I mean some characteristic that changes only very slowly with time. Like the birth rate, for example.
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#16
ag Wrote:It still might be able to turn around, but with the passage of time without changes in secular trends it will be more and more difficult. And if the oil price drops.....

Uhu. Donno if you are aware but Russian non-oil GDP is still shrinking. Which means that the oil bonanza is not translating into any real growth.


Back to the topic: today, SCO called for the timeline for removal of all foreign troups (read: US) from the member countries.
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#17
I do not follow their economy. With a lot of money from oil they could have at least try to turn things around. Apparently, they either do not want to or... can not. And I do not know which of those two reasons is worse.
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#18
History continues: Russia, Kazakhstan, Kirgisia, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and China ... told the same during meeting in Astana July, 5.
Who want to investigate cruelty of Karimov repressing islamists? :?
Text in russian and ... shtml

http://www.utro.ru/articles/2005/07/06/455744.shtml

BTW:
Rejecting Russia?
By Nikolas K. Gvosdev & Dimitri K. Simes
http://www.nationalinterest.org/ME2/dirm...60614B919E
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#19
Quote:Well, it's only possible if illegal Chinese immigrants here make a critical mass to trigger some kind of Yougoslavian variant

About 6 years ago, on a Chinese nationalist forum, that was their exact plan. Now, these guys all were writing in English, so I'm not sure if any of them were actually located in China. But I'm sure the idea has occurred to ultra-nationalists in China after looking at how successful Albanians were in Yugoslavia.

BTW, Mexican ultra-nationalists plan the same thing for the southwest US. They plan to call their new land "Azatland".

-S
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#20
Azatland ---> Aztlan.

Azatland would indicate a Mexican nationalist who does not use Spanish... Happens too, but I surely did not expect to hear about Chinese nationalists discussing conquest of Russia in English...
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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