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Palestinians, Green Houses & Utter Stupidity
#1
Remember all those wonderful greenhouses that the Gaza Jews left behind when the evacuated Gaza last year? And remember all the money raised to help the Pals keep them working, since they were not able to do so at the start?

Well, here is the latest on the good will of benevolent fools. The Pals are not going to be satisfied until Everything has been ruined, regardless of what it does to their well being.


Quote:Several greenhouses belonging to the former settlement of Morag in the Gaza Strip were destroyed over the weekend during an attempt by dozens of gunmen to take control of the area.

The Palestinian Company for Economic Development, which is in charge of thousands of greenhouses that used to belong to Morag and other settlements in Gush Katif, said the attack, which took place on Friday, was the latest in a series that began almost immediately after the settlements were evacuated.

The company revealed that hundreds of greenhouses and other agricultural installations have been sabotaged over the past few months, expressing its outrage over the recurring phenomenon. The company issued an urgent appeal to Palestinian Authority Chairman Mahmoud Abbas, Prime Minister Ismail Haniyeh and Interior Minister Said Siam to intervene to halt the attacks on the lands belonging to the former settlements.

"These greenhouses and other installations and projects provide a source of income for over 4,500 families," company officials said. "We are very disturbed by the recurring attacks and thefts. Such actions jeopardize the largest agricultural project carried by the Palestinian Authority after the Israeli withdrawal."
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#2
The destruction of these greenhouses and the resulting loss of 4,500 jobs is indeed an act of stupidity on behalf of the Palestinian gunmen. Comparitavely, this is a drop in the ocean when considering the damage Israel has caused the Palestinian economy, infrastructure and quality of life.
Do not judge the morale and intentions of a nation on the wanton stupidity of a few violent terrorists.

The victim, after being bullied, acts and performs their behaviour in accordance with the bully's.

Quote:According to the assessment carried out by the World Bank, UN agencies, the EU, USAID and officials from Canada, Denmark, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the Netherlands and Norway, in co-operation with the PA, Israel's recent military offensive in the West Bank caused physical damage estimated at $361m, compared with $305m in the first 15 months of Israeli-Palestinian fighting, which erupted in Sept 2005.
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#3
Benjamin, there is a war going on there, and Israel is fighting for it's very survival. If you are going to compare the amount of death and destruction caused by both the Jews AND the Pals, you will most assuridly find that your evil Jews are not in the lead.

Further, the Jews are far better at warfare than the Pals, or any Arabs for that matter. Are you stating that it would be MORE fair if they would give the Pals more of a handicap here?
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#4
John,

I noticed as you did Benjamin doesn't really give a big rat's a.ss that these Muslims are trying their level best to murder all the Jews like Hitler did.

Just because they are not capable of it is not a valid reson for a moral human to side with the Neo Nazi scum. If the Jews had any objectivity,their tormentors would all be dead by now.

Benjamin's Muslim friends in Palestine can thank Jewish subjectivity they are still alive to torment the Jews and anyone else on earth they choose to do their mass murder program on. Israel needs a new Gideon,Ben would have to find another Neo Nazi culture to champion then.

Maybe Germany can return to the old days??? Who knows?
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#5
Bawer Wrote:The hostility to America was ubiquitous, and reflexive. Ditto the hostility to Israel, which Europeans have been taught by their elite to see almost exclusively as America’s 51st state, an oppressor of Palestinians and an illegal occupier of Arab and Muslim lands. I had been in many ways a critic of America, but in Europe I increasingly came to appreciate its virtues – and repeatedly found myself in social situations where I was obliged to defend it against people who regurgitated inane anti-American clichés that they’d been fed since infancy.
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#6
I have no doubt that anti semitism also exacerbates the hostility to America,we do NOT share Europe's traditional anti semitism.

They fled Europe for good reason and those who persecuted them cannot allow them to live in safety and freedom from THEM.
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#7
Both of you have missed my point, rather than looking at this in black and white terms, Muslims = evil, Jews = righteous. I do not believe that Jews are evil, nor do I doubt the right of Israel's existance, but I would like to see a level playing field and possibly not resort to racism when considering the Israeli and Palestinian conflict.

I think it more sensible to look at them as human beings and exclude race and religion from the arguement entirely. John, the Israeli's are only better at warfare because they receive vast aid packages from the US government, mainly in the form of military hardware, some of which is the most advanced on the planet. The Palestinians, in contrast, have guns that are ex-Soviet and rarely functioning, otherwise they have rocks. It is a modern day David and Goliath and if you honestly think that the Israeli's (or anyone else) would fare better if the tables were turned then I would like to see the evidence.

Regarding anti-Semitism, you are after all, talking about the same race of people, Semites, anti-Semitism refers not only to Jewish, but also Arab decendants who are also Semites. You do not share Europe's current or historic anti-Semitism but some of you are certainly making up for lost time since 9/11.

A war may be going on between the Israeli and Palestinian people but that does not give Israel or the Palestinians the right to do what they see fit to exterminate one another. If you are to condemn one, then you must condemn the other or present fit (and valid) justification for why the other is exempt. So far, neither of you have stated a clear reason why Israel is allowed to commit wandan destruction of property and the Palestinians are not.
There are rules of engagement, laid down by the virtues of your country that are used to govern the rest of the world, these are noble and honourable virtures which the Israeli government has shown no respect for, even receiving condemnation from your government for its lack of respect.

All I seem to get is familiar rhetoric about bias and the notion that we European "elites" have an anti-American bias. I personally do not, so maybe I have been misinformed by the media in my country or perhaps I cannot see the full picture, in which case I have come to this forum where I can openly discuss this with people of a different persuation these ideas. So instead of dismissing me as an "elite", "neo-nazi" and even an "anti-Semite" prehaps it would be more prudent to engage in a discussion about why you feel I am wrong and your are right. Otherwise to myself and the other people I commonly present this forum to, it becomes somewhat of a joke.
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#8
benjamin Wrote:A war may be going on between the Israeli and Palestinian people but that does not give Israel or the Palestinians the right to do what they see fit to exterminate one another.
The way I see it, the Israeli's have never made it their explicit credo to exterminate the Palestinian people. It is the reverse, however.
Israeli's have made many concessions, such as giving back the land they had taken in a war with Arabs, only to have the Palestinians essentialy spit in their face.

The Israeli's are sitting on a powder keg that is the Palestinian people. How would you deal with a group of people that 1.Don't believe you have the right to exist. 2. Are willing blow themselves up in a crowded cafe.

Think about it this way: If someone could magically

The tragedy, I think, is that the Palestinians have always been just a proxy for the surrounding Arabs who would love to see Israel pushed into the sea.
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#9
Benjamin Wrote:John, the Israeli's are only better at warfare because they receive vast aid packages from the US government, mainly in the form of military hardware, some of which is the most advanced on the planet.

Simply not true. They are better because they have been persecuted for so long that they are not about to become part of another Holocast as happened during WWII. If your point is true, then how were they so successful in 1948, when they were so outnumbered, yet successful? They are successful because they have nowhere to go, except the sea, or perhaps an oven. They are successful because they know how to work in concert. All that US aid is just icing on the cake. BTY, did you know that the largest amount of aid to Israel is not from the US government, but from US Jews, given privately. Do you object to this as well?

And why would you want a 'level playing field'? If so, the Jew in Israel would be DEAD already. Level playing fields are for idealists and those far away from the bullets and shrappnel flying in all directions.

Benjamin Wrote:Regarding anti-Semitism, you are after all, talking about the same race of people, Semites, anti-Semitism refers not only to Jewish, but also Arab decendants who are also Semites. You do not share Europe's current or historic anti-Semitism but some of you are certainly making up for lost time since 9/11.

Of course: Indo European. So what? My ancestors are Irish, English, German, AND Moroccan Jew. I am well aware of how Europe has thought of jews. And as for making up for lost time, I assume that you are referring not to the Jew, but to his cousin. However, one thing you forget. The Jew's cousin there is actually trying to KILL us, just as they would kill you in a New York Minute. You should Never Forget that.

Benjamin Wrote:A war may be going on between the Israeli and Palestinian people but that does not give Israel or the Palestinians the right to do what they see fit to exterminate one another. If you are to condemn one, then you must condemn the other or present fit (and valid) justification for why the other is exempt. So far, neither of you have stated a clear reason why Israel is allowed to commit wandan destruction of property and the Palestinians are not.
There are rules of engagement, laid down by the virtues of your country that are used to govern the rest of the world, these are noble and honourable virtures which the Israeli government has shown no respect for, even receiving condemnation from your government for its lack of respect.

Benjamin, you are a perfect example of what Dr Shelby Steele was addressing when he talks about White Guilt. BTY, did you bother to read it? In case you did not, here is the link to it. Please read it, as it is just as salient with Europe as with our masochistic Left Kook fringe.

Benjamin, I value your opinion here, and encourage it. However, if you recoil in defense and think that we are all against you, then you are mistaken. We here in the US, or most of us anyway, view you Euros as being more than willing to put your own neck in the noose to appease your self-guilt and desire to keep yourself from looking superiour to the little 'brown' people running through out the rest of the world. And it is particularly perplexing to see the same thing with you blokes. Where is your backbone, or that old "stiff upper lip" that is so famous?

The truth is that Western Civilization IS superiour to what they have been living under, and you should be proud of your heritage. If you do not defend your culture OR your necks, surely someone will come forth and relieve you of it. Trust me on this one. There be tigres out there, and you(third person) are the main course.
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#10
John,

I believe we are very much on the same side, I am totally against the ideas that Muslims should destroy our culture, eliminate the west etc. etc. I just think that we have exaggerated the threat, that by reacting to the terrorist acts of a minority, the majority is getting hurt. Preserving the Western way of life should not mean jeopardising the lives of thousands of innocents, that is no existence. I am for the sanctity of life - universally.

John L Wrote:Did you know that the largest amount of aid to Israel is not from the US government, but from US Jews, given privately. Do you object to this as well?

I was aware that the largest amount of financial aid was independent, but I stipulated military aid, that is only given by your government. I do not object to the aid that Israel receives, I do not object to Israel existing as a state, the only objection here was highlighting that you are not giving Israel due condemnation that you are prepared to give the Palestinians. I never explained my political take on the situation, rather I raised an objection, which I might add, you still have not addressed.

John L Wrote:And why would you want a 'level playing field'? If so, the Jew in Israel would be DEAD already. Level playing fields are for idealists and those far away from the bullets and shrappnel flying in all directions.

John, this is of topic, but as you well know I do not want a level playing field, I but if we want to address facts objectively when talking about conflict, IR and what is taking place in the ME, we should treat both (innocent) sides equally, they are after human beings. Why claim that the innocent Palestinians who want nothing more than peace are 'benevolent fools' to boot? By all means condemn the terrorists, the minority and the stupidity that is the crust in every society, but why pretend this crust is societal?

John L Wrote:Of course: Indo European. So what? My ancestors are Irish, English, German, AND Moroccan Jew. I am well aware of how Europe has thought of jews. And as for making up for lost time, I assume that you are referring not to the Jew, but to his cousin. However, one thing you forget. The Jew's cousin there is actually trying to KILL us, just as they would kill you in a New York Minute. You should Never Forget that.
My work has led me to meet the 'Jew's cousin' may times over and never have I felt that death was close, even friends of the Jordanians, Egyptians, and Palestinians all whom you profess hate our culture so much are happy to share a Marlboro. As are the scared teenagers fighting with the IDF and patrolling the West Bank Settlements, they are the same flesh and blood. Maybe you see things differently, in which case please do explain. After the London bombings last July my resentment did not turn towards the Arabs as a people. My hatred did not get the better of me , instead I made an informed decision (based on the facts) that individuals working on an individual level were trying to ferment a prophetic ‘Clash of Civilisations' and thus rot Western Society from within like a bad apple.

John L Wrote:Benjamin, you are a perfect example of what Dr Shelby Steele was addressing when he talks about White Guilt. BTY, did you bother to read it? In case you did not, here is the link to it. Please read it, as it is just as salient with Europe as with our masochistic Left Kook fringe.

I read the article the first time but took the reminder as a hint to examine it more thoroughly, especially the notion of "white guilt", which I have heard of several times before, under different guises i.e.‘colonialist reparation’. An better example than myself of this ‘guilt’ might also be to favour a race that were mistreated during WWII and then to legitimise the housing of this race in a nation, perhaps whole heartedly supporting them without consideration of the context, even stocking them with weaponry.

John L Wrote:We here in the US, or most of us anyway, view you Euros as being more than willing to put your own neck in the noose to appease your self-guilt and desire to keep yourself from looking superiour to the little 'brown' people running through out the rest of the world. And it is particularly perplexing to see the same thing with you blokes. Where is your backbone, or that old "stiff upper lip" that is so famous?

I would argue that a realistic world-view, being a complete dissemination of the facts and an objective understanding from a theoretical and practical interpretation of academic journals, news and intelligence from the field would be the best way to view the situation. You cannot argue with hard fact, in any which instance it is difficult to take sides, guilt or no guilt.

I am glad that my opinion is welcome, I do not seek to poke the hornet’s nest for the purposes of provocation, but rather because you are discussing topics that I feel equally as strong about. I do not think you are ‘all against me’, I believe we differ in opinion, but will gladly see things from your perspective, it is often thought provoking. However I think that somewhere along the way you have taken black and white realism to the furthest degree, inadvertently overstating the threat that now poses your civilisation and in turn making a misjudgement that does threaten America and the World. This is the real concern, not that we soft-liberal white Europeans lack any moral fibre to stand up to the enemy, of course we would, if we really faced one. I would like to draw your attention to a three-part documentary produced by a brilliant and talented producer called Adam Curtis. I would urge you to find the time to watch this series and challenge any of the claims presented in this forum, I would be delighted to discuss this with you.

John L Wrote:The truth is that Western Civilization IS superiour to what they have been living under, and you should be proud of your heritage. If you do not defend your culture OR your necks, surely someone will come forth and relieve you of it. Trust me on this one. There be tigres out there, and you(third person) are the main course.

You need not remind me to be proud of my heritage, but also despondent, yet not guilty in the way you are suggesting. Defending our culture is made easier by acceptance, because it fluctuates and values grow through integration, globalisation is this in action, you need to realise that the proverbial enemy that survivalist colonies such as America and Israel seek are often projections of the social ills and scapegoating of the country's internal problems. I believe that if you can tell the difference between these projections and where the real enemy or threat to western culture exists then you can answer my original query without tainting your judgement or impartiality.
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#11
Sorry, do not have much time now, but
Quote:Samuel Huntington, one of the scholars who's name has graced history's pages and probably also stained it in blood wrote this thesis on tracing paper. His understanding of IR was straight out of Osama Bin Laden's handbook; the shame is that so many people are giving it the credit it does not deserve.
strikes me that you do not like the concept. However, if you look carefully (and without any like/dislike emotional crap) you will see that all human history is an extended civilizational clash. And poor Osama is somewhat tragic in his struggle: he correctly identified the West as the entity that will destroy his tribal society if not resisted. His error (and tragedy) is that he think he can prevent it. He can not. The West will destroy his (and all other) tribal societies even if he or anyone's else resist because people in every hellhole want to live in a local version of Levittown. You know, the shrinking globe and all that comes with it.
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#12
You can't help animals. Don't help them anymore. Let them destroy themselves or learn from their mistakes and change. Darwin was right, let them learn on their own.
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