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Gorbachev on Democratization, Authoritarianism
#1
Click here.
Gorbachev is idealist, that's why people in the West like him. Locals have little respect to him. He always talks sense, but is totally inept to hold power.
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#2
Thank you for the link, Green.

The man talks sense. I hope he is genuine with his thought. I would love to see a great people like the Russians find daylight and a "dignified life".

Ironically, Russia today is wrestling with the same issues as Iraq. ie learning to take responsibility of freedom after generations of externally applied coercion.
Ken
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#3
Green Wrote:Gorbachev is idealist, that's why people in the West like him.
Gorbachev was useful idiot, useful to annihilate communism from within. That's why West like him, but it does mean I must respect idiot, even if he was useful.
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#4
Quote:Ironically, Russia today is wrestling with the same issues as Iraq. ie: learning to take responsibility of freedom after generations of externally applied coercion.
Well, thanks fot thinking of it as "externally applied coercion" Wink1
Quote:Gorbachev was useful idiot
I suspect that everyone was idiot at that time. To blame only Gorbachev is stupid.
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#5
I agree with bh with one caveat, that he was a willing useful idiot. In return for opening Russia to Free enterprise, he was appointed to the U.N. as head of environmental concerns, which some considered made him one of the five most powerful leaders in the world. I haven't followed his post-USSR career as closely as I could, particularly since Kyoto blew up.
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#6
Wow, I never knew about his appointment of International Green Cross.

Anyway, my belief is that giving people freedom aside from giving them bread is stupid mistake of any politician.
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#7
WmLambert Wrote:I agree with bh with one caveat, that he was a willing useful idiot.
No, he was commie, who tried to treat socialism and hadn't noticed that ill was inoperable. He was unwary useful idiot. Annihilating of socialism was collateral damage of his dumb activity. There were additional consequences of his enthusiasm - collapse of state, collapse of economy, collapse of army...West favour him, cause they watch show from outside, but we were inside. So our impressions were quite different.
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#8
Boris (are you Boris, bh?), why do we forget about Gorbachev high popularity in the first years of perestroika?
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#9
Green Wrote:Boris (are you Boris, bh?), why do we forget about Gorbachev high popularity in the first years of perestroika?
No, I'm not Boris... S2
Popularity isn't exact term. Population needed changes and obtained it. But Gorby was reformer like chukcha surgeon. He can't determine goals and achieve it, but he can wreck anything he head... IMHO it's inadequacy as an illness. Hrushchev was the same type of politician and I'm afraid GB isn't fully healthy...
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#10
http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/edi...chev_x.htm
Gorbachev:
Quote:Q:Are the criticisms from the USA and other Western countries not justified?

A: Perhaps they would just like to keep Russia down as long as possible. The United States wants to continue as the sole superpower that is in charge of the world, and that is why it doesn't want Russia to rise. But this is a mistake. Even the Europeans are afraid. They all speak against Russia, saying we must defend democracy in Russia. But let me assure you there will be no authoritarian regime in Russia. ... In some places in Russia, some authoritarian steps have to be taken. But all of this is in order to keep Russia moving along the lines of democracy. ... President Bush in a recent speech said the USA will continue to engage Russia. This is very important. We want a partnership and cooperation with the United States and perhaps even to become an ally with the United States. This is not just my opinion; this is the opinion at the highest level of the Russian government.

QS2o you feel that such an opportunity was lost at the end of the Cold War?

A: Yes, I believe that. ... We are paying a price for the lag in world politics. We are paying the price for all these new geopolitical games, for all of this infighting for spheres of influence and for choosing very often force as a method, as a tool, we are paying a very high price for all of these mistakes.
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#11
Gorbachev didn't actually want to abolish the Soviet Union. He was following a plan formulated by Yuri Andropov back in the 70s, when it became apparent that the alliance between the U.S. and China was going to finish the Soviet Union. The plan was essentially to adopt something resembling a free enterprise system, but at the same time retain political authority - the same thing China is trying to do. However, nobody guessed how weak the Soviet government really was - the few reforms Gorbachev introduced spiralled out of control until the government itself was brought down. This is actually common in history - an outdated government introduces a few reforms, thinking it can incorporate them into itself, only to cause its own destruction.
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#12
I know where you get this from...
The first letter is "S". Wink1
I wonder if alliance of the US and China will finish the US.
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#13
Yep. S6 Do you agree with their assessment?

Also, why would our alliance with China hurt us?
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#14
One of you Russians above said or quoted something about a government "giving freedom without giving bread"

That is your whole dilemma over there; you think the government...any government "gives" anything among freedoms or bread.

At best, a government tries to create a "decent playing field" with at least enough fairly designed rules to let everyone EARN a piece of the pie with their own efforts and by teaming up with like minded individuals.

(I have just described the small US corporation model)

"external coercion" in my post above was meant to describe your former government's absolute corruption along with its absolute demand that each of you bow your head or die. Very similar to Saddam's attitude.

Would any of you really like it if your former government had won the cold war and turned the lights of civilization off forever? I would think after a moment of reflection...and yes grief...you would thank God and the United States of America for helping each of you have at least a hope of breaking those chains.
Best regards to y'all and best wishes on your work toward a self-directed future.
Ken
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#15
KenBean Wrote:One of you Russians above said or quoted something about a government "giving freedom without giving bread"

That is your whole dilemma over there; you think the government...any government "gives" anything among freedoms or bread.
No, Ken, like I told before, americans and american media don't have a clue what they are talking about when they talk about Russia. S2 Soviet reality was too perverted to understand it for people with rational mentality.
Privatization in Russia started only in 1991, when Gorby had gone and your comments are actual for todays Russia. But in Soviet Union it was exactly state who distributed "bread", goods etc. There were no private producers. Gorby destroyed state production and hadn't created real private sector.

KenBean Wrote:Would any of you really like it if your former government had won the cold war and turned the lights of civilization off forever?
Ken, I wanted commies to f...k off... no matter had they won the cold war or no ... They lost power, cause population despised commies and they were leaded by idiot, who hadn't understand what did he do. Socialism was dictatorship and attempt to democratize it was suicide for dictatorship=socialism. First democratic wave killed socialism. Cold war was catalyst only.
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#16
Anonimous Wrote:Yep. S6 Do you agree with their assessment?

Partially.
I absolutely agree that the West supports China with investment during the past 20 years or more. If we look back to the 80s we will see that both Chinese and Soviet regimes were totalitarian and almost equally sucked...
But I can't see Chinese role in the cause of destruction of the USSR. :?
Quote:Also, why would our alliance with China hurt us?
Because China slowly becomes a superpower.
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#17
KenBean Wrote:One of you Russians above said or quoted something about a government "giving freedom without giving bread"
It was me.
Quote:That is your whole dilemma over there; you think the government...any government "gives" anything among freedoms or bread.
That's true. But wasn't Thomas Jefferson a government official who "gave" freedoms to Americans?

Quote:At best, a government tries to create a "decent playing field" with at least enough fairly designed rules to let everyone EARN a piece of the pie with their own efforts and by teaming up with like minded individuals.
Well, it works pretty good in warm countries like America. But have a look at Russia's map. This country is the coldest in the world with the longest winter (for about 5-9 months). Canada and Scandinavia in the places where people live are considerably warmer. (I did researches for that.)
So I just want to say that we must secure our lives somehow in our homes. Plus the cost of products made in such harsh conditions includes a huge part of the energy spent for heating.
I think that everything that is responsible for the survival of the nation under such conditions is a prerogative of the state.
The government must "give" warmth into our homes that we don't freeze up. The government must regulate energy tariffs that factories and mills don't stop and the goods still be competitive with the rest of the world.
Maybe this theory has some drawbacks...It would be interesting to compare Russia with Alaska...

Quote: I would think after a moment of reflection...and yes grief...you would thank God and the United States of America for helping each of you have at least a hope of breaking those chains.
In fact Russia exchanged the ideological chains for the financial chains.
WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? Chains are always chains.

Quote:Best regards to y'all and best wishes on your work toward a self-directed future.
Ken
Thanks. All the best to you.
Green.
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#18
Green Wrote:In fact Russia exchanged the ideological chains for the financial chains.
WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE? Chains are always chains.

There are some differences:
1. Today I don't know how many communists and comsomolets are in Moscow region and it's not a problem for me...
2. I mustn't answer dumb questions in regional comsomol commitee when I want to have a trip abroad. In fact dolboyebs in american embassy aren't any better, but at least they aren't our dolboyebs.
3. I can simply buy, what I want ... if I have money of cause... New generation don't know alternative we had before...
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#19
Well Green, a little history about Thomas Jefferson. He was NOT a "government official" by any definition someone from your background could imagine.
He was in fact elected to a legislature in one colony...later to become a State. He was a farmer....if a very big farmer ) and yes, he was a slave owner but who in the same breath said "give me liberty or give me death".
hmmmmmmm ?

I imagine if one of his slaves would have expressed the same sentiment, Thomas would have obliged him......but he would have respected him as he had him shot...or hanged.

Oh well, nobody is perfect.

bottom line though...freedom from slavery is a personal decision risking death. Freedom from financial chains is also a risk. Linda and I could loose everything financially in our venture, but so far we have been able to secure "partners" (shareowners) to pool the capital to make our venture very promising in combination with Linda's unique skills and knowhow.
Yes, Russia is very cold. Not the best crop growing in the world.
but mining and oil/gas production could easily be traded for grain...if someone over there could organize it profitably for everyone involved.
Best regards
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#20
Quote:Thomas Jefferson ....who in the same breath said "give me liberty or give me death".
Thomas Jefferson? Are you sure? May be it was someone else? S1
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