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Undoing the Brain Dead NATO
#1
E. Macron Wrote:Europe must bolster its capacity and willingness to act, both because it cannot rely eternally on an unpredictable United States, and because within NATO it is being hamstrung by unilateral action like that of Turkey in Syria.

....
Europe must become autonomous in terms of military strategy and capability
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IMO it's very important news. You can't sack Turkey from NATO. So let's dismantle NATO and Turkey will be out of it by fact.

The obsolecy of this institution become more and more obvious every year. Turkey is the most obvious example. The US waging wars which all other members disagree with is another one.

And then, you have the natural evolution which leads to Europe's independence from the US for its defense.
Something just about everybody agrees with.

Putin looks upbeat at the idea. He thinks this will weaken the military in East Europe. He is mistaken because Europe is going to increase its own forces. And having local forces to protect the border will be more effective than americans who may not have the same motivation and the same rules of engagement.
Putin doesn't understand the increased economic power of east european countries and their ability to buy expensive weapons. This is a big change from 20 or even 10 years ago.

The disappearance of NATO will remove the biggest subject of russian nationalist paranoia. They see NATO as a second name for the US army where other members are merely mercenaries. And this US NATO is there to invade Russia. Proof being that they already invaded the Lithuanian, Lettonian and Estonian provinces of Russia.
Without NATO they will think that all these small countries will do their own defense alone without coordination and without helping each other. That's the nationalist thinking.
They are of course very far from reality.
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#2
Trump Wrote:“It’s not right to be taken advantage of on NATO and also then to be taken advantage of on trade

What can I say.... sighhhhhh.... we, europeans are smarter. S5

'Very, very nasty': Trump clashes with Macron before NATO summit
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#3
Quote:In sharp exchanges underlining discord in a transatlantic bloc hailed by backers as the most successful military pact in history, Trump demanded that Europe pay more for its collective defense and make concessions to U.S. interests on trade.

Perhaps it's time for the Euros to start paying more of their fair share.  After all, the US has sacrificed untold billions on Europe's behalf, when they needed it most. 

Personally I think the Euros are more than capable of defending themselves against either the Ruskies AND Islam.  Fortunately, Russia is more a paper tigre, with the exception of nuclear weapons.  They are a financial and economic basket case.  As for Islam, if the Euros don't come down hard on all this illegal immigration of Wacko Islamics, they are going to reap what they have been sowing. 

Quote:Macron, the French president, stood by comments he made last month describing NATO as suffering from a lack of strategic purpose akin to “brain death”, and criticized fellow NATO member Turkey, which he accused of working with Islamic State proxies

Frogs have always been the Queers of Euroland at least since the 1960s,  When I lived in Baumholder with my parents, France was a total joke with practically everyone, especially the Krauts.  I also worked as a waiter in the Baumholder Top Five NCO Club, and it was normal to see two French male soldiers dancing together like man and woman.  Everybody got a good laugh almost every evening.  As an old saying goes, "The Italians are Crazy and loving every minute of it.  The French are also Crazy, but are highly indignant about it."  That's why the Italians are my favorite Euros.  Oh, and every one of their automobiles seems to have a horn that has at least four-five notes.  Love those WAPs.

Incidentally, once France left NATO in an unwarranted huff, they should never been readmitted in 2009 IMO.  They are undependable, quarrelsome, cheap, and the laughing stock of Europe as a whole.  Since 99% of Americans have not lived in Europe as I have, they have no idea as to just how crazy they are.  And don't get me wrong, I really do like the French who live in the countryside.  But the city Frogs are not worth their weight in cow manure.  Spiteful

And as for Turkey, it is the bastard child that never should have been admitted as a full member.  When I lived in Germany, Turks were all over the place and the overwhelming majority of crime.  And to make things even worse, they are also primarily responsible for allowing millions of Islamic refugees to enter Europe.  Well Frau Merkle is also complicit as well. 

Fred Wrote:What can I say.... sighhhhhh.... we, europeans are smarter. S5

No, they were just great con artists, and have taken advantage of a free ride for too long.  Someone in the US is going to have to put an end to all this disproportionate, and obsolete, arrangement.  And that "Somebody" is probably going to be The Donald.
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“Don’t confuse me with facts, my mind is made up” — Saint Al of the Gore -
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#4
Finally at the NATO meeting, nothing happened.
Erdogan called Macron "Brain Dead" and Trump called Trudeau "Two Faced" but when serious discussion started, nothing meaningful was announced anymore.


JohnL Wrote:And that "Somebody" is probably going to be The Donald.
Yes the Donald has been talking about that for a while. But as with everything else he won't do anything other than rapeating that he's doing it. And at the end, you will believe that he did it.

I don't think that europeans played con artists to get american soldiers based in Germany. The americans decided to come and stay first. Then, yes we took advantage of it.
It's natural that european became independent with defense.

Russia is still the main threat. Islam is much worse and much more actual a threat than Russia, but it's not a military threat.
Russia would invade with tanks. Islam is invading with mosqes and migration. Classic military warfare won't do anything against Islam.

And concerning Islam, the worse ennemies are not the mullahs or the terrorists, but our governments and the useful idiots.

You Wrote:99% of Americans have not lived in Europe
but you haven't been in Europe for too long and it has changed.
About french soldiers dancing together... it's funny because there was a french movie in the 70's making fun of just that. S5
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#5
(12-05-2019, 09:05 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: ...he won't do anything other than repeating that he's doing it. And at the end, you will believe that he did it.
Most of his negotiations have followed what he described in his biographies. He presets the stage as much as possible and works hard to make things work. Not everything works out, but he usually leaves possibilities for followup, all while fighting the media trying to disinform.

(12-05-2019, 09:05 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: ....99% of Americans have not lived in Europe

No big deal. Believe it or not, but the world is getting smaller as technology expands, and the other side of the planet is just a click away. Many of us have visited, so we have a means to compare cultures, but living there just fills in more details of any one, small place. For example, in Amsterdam, no one uses window shades or blinds. As you walk the streets, it is like you are a voyeur. I guess if you lived there, you would see inside the same houses more often.
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