Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
El Paso Shooter a Hardcore Progressive
#21
Fredledingue Wrote:...
WmL Wrote:I'm sure that nine times out of ten, you see or hear a reported statement from Trump that is reported incorrectly.
Yes, but the fact that Trump talks about the migrants with contempt is not contested by anyone. Neither by the democrats who says it's horrible to talk like this. Nor by the US far right who says it's great he said so. The old "it's not racism because it's the truth".

But Trump never ever talks about migrants. He has only talked pejoratively of ILLEGAL aliens. Not knowing that illegals are not all migrants makes you racist.

Fredledingue Wrote:...
WmL Wrote:Equating Trump with her is wrong. People who know Hillary personally (specifically, her bodyguard details) all hated her.
Why do you think that what you have heard or read about Hillary has been reported more correctly than what I heard or read about Trump?

Because no one who knows or has worked with Trump has accused him of being mean to them. All of Hillary's guard details have - dating back to her time as the Arkansas First Lady. What you have heard or read about Trump are revisionist attacks by political rivals commenting on misquotes and lies. For instance, Trump has never made a statement against Muslims. Yet, the Left pretends "Everyone knows he has."
Reply
#22
Fred Wrote:The economy is great. But it would be as great or even greater, had Trump not tried to interfere.
There is a graph with the unemployment rate showing it constantly decreasing several years back into Obama's presidency and then continuing to decrease on exactly the same slope into Trump's presidency as if the change of president had absolutely NO effect whatsoever on employment. And I do think it didn't.

That is where you are wrong my friend. Trump, along with the Republican congress managed to get a very nice tax cut passed, over the squealing of the Jackasses, who have already stated that they will raise taxes once more if they gain control. That one achievement alone is Huge.

He has also made progress with Latin American countries in Mexico and S.America. By threatening tariffs he has forced them to back down on their tariffs. He will accomplish the same thing with China before long. He is determined to get a level playing field. There is an article, I believe at PJMedia that has itemized his accomplishments so far, but I will have to do some rooting around to find it.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
“Don’t confuse me with facts, my mind is made up” — Saint Al of the Gore -
Reply
#23
WmL Wrote:He has only talked pejoratively of ILLEGAL aliens.
Oh, yes, thanks, I forgot this. He talk about these poor people with so much contempt that he call them "illegal aliens"
It's twice pejorative because there is the word alienation in alien and because he amphazises the fact that they are illegal.
Of course they are illegal.

JohnL Wrote:Trump, along with the Republican congress managed to get a very nice tax cut passed,
This tax cut was the easiest thing to do and it had probably a positive effect. But the benefits were more than offset by the tax on imports, aka Trade War.
Had trump stuck with his tax cut and not follow with a tax rise, I would agree with you.

About the Trade War, you know my opinion, I explained it in the Trade War thread. Trump made no progress since my last post there.
And it's good that he made no progress because what he want to do is useless.

The problem is not so much with the idea of tariffs. It's normal to put tariffs on imports from countries where labour cost is much lower and companies benefit from government support.
It's normal but it's not a question of fairness.
Trump is calling others unfair for the US not having tariffs, This is absurd, hypocritical and offensive.

How can you expect Trump to succeed in any international negotiation when he hold an offensive language systematically?
It's obvious, even predictable, that he fails. He is not able to talk normally with other leaders. When I saw him the first time as a candidate, I knew that on the international stage he won't make it.

The way he speaks works very well when he address his voters. I enjoy watching him myself. But as soon as he attempts to talk seriously, he becomes extremely boring.
Reply
#24
Fredledingue Wrote:...He talk about these poor people with so much contempt that he call them "illegal aliens"
It's twice pejorative because there is the word alienation in alien and because he amphazises the fact that they are illegal.
Of course they are illegal.

No. he does not talk derogatorily about poor people. He correctly names illegal aliens for what they are. Did you ever study logic or history? If so, you should know that consistent thought is that if a person breaks the law once by crossing illegally into any nation, then that person has made the conscious decision that he/she is above the law forever. Murder, rape? The decision has already been made. One cannot argue that a lesser crime does not engender more severe crimes. Once beyond that line, a person's psyche has been established.

What makes this worse, is that illegal aliens steal their place in line before legitimate honorable people who followed all the rules and would make good citizens.
Reply
#25
WmLambert Wrote:Murder, rape? The decision has already been made. One cannot argue that a lesser crime does not engender more severe crimes. Once beyond that line, a person's psyche has been established.
I will repeat you this when you break the law: driving above speed limit, growing a tree too high in you garden, walking outside pedestrian crossing, whatever. I know you never do these things. But now you have one more reason to be VERY carefull not to break the law even once because it would turn you into a potential rapist or murderer immediately.

Seriousely, you kow as well as me, that crossing a border illegaly doesn't make poeple think about doing crimes. I mean real crimes. Crossing a border is an infringement, not a crime.

People who do this deserve to be deported. Not to get jail sentences or high fines.

WmL Wrote:What makes this worse, is that illegal aliens steal their place in line before legitimate honorable people who followed all the rules and would make good citizens.
No because those who are coming legaly still keep their right to stay legally no matter how many illegals are there.
And illegals are illegals for the reason that they are in the impossibility to get legal access to the US.

It's not unfair morally to try to enter (or exit) a country illegaly. They try, they get caught. They are returned where they are from.
They are not caught, Trump gets upset: Your fault. You has to protect your border better. It's a fair game.

If somone comes in your or in my coutry illegaly, then live normaly and behaving and working honestly, it's only a minor offense.
Reply
#26
Fredledingue Wrote:
WmLambert Wrote:Murder, rape? The decision has already been made. One cannot argue that a lesser crime does not engender more severe crimes. Once beyond that line, a person's psyche has been established.
I will repeat you this when you break the law: driving above speed limit, growing a tree too high in you garden, walking outside pedestrian crossing, whatever. I know you never do these things. But now you have one more reason to be VERY carefull not to break the law even once because it would turn you into a potential rapist or murderer immediately.

Seriousely, you kow as well as me, that crossing a border illegaly doesn't make poeple think about doing crimes. I mean real crimes. Crossing a border is an  infringement, not a crime.

People who do this deserve to be deported. Not to get jail sentences or high fines.

Violating policy decisions is not the same as violating felony Constitutional law. I think your misunderstanding comes from conflating our very important border laws with contested local rules made for the benefit of the policy makers - not for the nation as a whole. Equating how large a flag may be displayed in a neighborhood, in order to best maintain property values, is not the same as purposefully saying a law that can get you thrown in prison does not pertain to you... that you are above the law.

We did study this in depth in my philosophy classes, and knowingly breaking a law that is aimed at you foretells more flagrant violations of law in the future. Studies in criminal law and recidivism bolsters this conclusion. There is a reason that the illegal aliens crossing the Texas border create hundreds of thousands of other crimes once they enter the state. Some crimes are minor misdemeanors, and some are major felonies, but all are done because the perpetrators think they are above the law. It's no wonder they want to join the Clinton crime family once they get here.

Fredledingue Wrote:
WmL Wrote:What makes this worse, is that illegal aliens steal their place in line before legitimate honorable people who followed all the rules and would make good citizens.
No because those who are coming legaly still keep their right to stay legally no matter how many illegals are there.
And illegals are illegals for the reason that they are in the impossibility to get legal access to the US.

It's not unfair morally to try to enter (or exit) a country illegaly. They try, they get caught. They are returned where they are from.
They are not caught, Trump gets upset: Your fault. You has to protect your border better. It's a fair game.

If somone comes in your or in my coutry illegaly, then live normaly and behaving and working honestly, it's only a minor offense.

Because there are so many illegal entrants, it affects the quota of legal applications accepted. Some deserved applicants have to wait for years.

If someone comes into your or my country illegally, then they do not live normally. They can't work honestly, so they steal Social Security numbers and other IDs and do not pay taxes. If they are found out to be illegals, then the company that may have held back taxes get to keep it rather than turn it in to the Treasury, thereby enabling crooked companies to look the other way when accepting illegals into their workforce. If you don't think they behave the same, you should work in Vegas and see the illegals who work on your projects and present papers to you with their SS number in 120-pt type on the top of every form. Normal people hide their SS so it can't be misused. Illegals don't care, because it isn't theirs, anyway.
Reply
#27
Of course that's the problem with illegals. But they work illegally because they can't work legally, not because they are criminal minded.
In your mentality, anything illegal is a crime. In theirs, it's just the way they sort it out. They don;t have notion of law and legality. It doesn't mean they will do violent crime as Trump suggests. Just that they do things the way it's possible to for them to do.
Someone who lived in Nicaragua and hired workers there told me that people steal continuously. Not because they are dishonest or want to harm you but simply, if something is there, and you din;t put it in a locked location, you can take it. They think it's not immoral because you din't care enough about these things to put them safe behind a grid or something.
IMO it's the same when they cross the border: They don't think pretentiously that they are above the law, they just think that since there is no wall tall enough to stop them, they can enter. With the 20 feet Trump Wall (in fact a large grid) they understand that they can't and that you really mean it.

In Europe (at least in Belgium), there is this crazy situation when a company, often a small one, can hire an illegal officially, pay the taxes, pay the social security and everything and be perfectly fine when the labour inspectors drop by and check out the workers.
If you pay the taxes, if the workers are not underpaid and you respect the basic safety rules on the workplace, it's ok. They don't verify whether they are there legally or not because it's not the same ministry and not their job.
Of course when there is high suspicion, the police is coming and they are all caught collectively.
Thousands of africans are working legally in Belgium,  sometimes for 20 years, while being illegally in the country. And everybody knows that. One of them was even seen talking about it on a show on the national TV channel.

In some cases, big companies hire illegals and undeclared, but it's not common. It's usually government contractors with direct and personal connections with the politicians in charge.
Of course there are many undeclared workers (living legally or illegally in the country, no matter) but more and more people prefer not to take the risk.
Reply
#28
fredledingue Wrote:...They don;t have notion of law and legality. It doesn't mean they will do violent crime as Trump suggests. Just that they do things the way it's possible to for them to do.
The numbers say different. Once they throw our laws back into our faces, they continue to increase the severity of their crimes. Many go before a judge and get thrown out and turn right around and reenter. Why? Because they think they can get away with it and our laws are meaningless. Many of these recidivists are violent criminals. Some you may consider not to be "criminally minded" - but that is what they are by definition. What limits are on an illegal to obey any laws at all?

fredledingue Wrote:...Someone who lived in Nicaragua and hired workers there told me that people steal continuously. Not because they are dishonest or want to harm you but simply, if something is there, and you din;t put it in a locked location, you can take it. They think it's not immoral because you din't care enough about these things to put them safe behind a grid or something.
Cultural immorality. Over here, we used to be able to not lock doors, with the belief our lives and possessions were safe. In Sharia law (for example) if a woman doesn't completely cover herself with a hijab, then she is rapable by any man who spies her, because men have no law to prevent them doing so. The penalty is for the woman to be punished. This is one of the problems of illegal aliens entering our country and not wanting to abide by our laws. They think they can do whatever they please because their laws let them, so why follow ours?

No. You cannot steal another's property because it is not locked up. If you put possessions out on the street during trash pick-up day, then, and only then, are they allowed to be taken. That is because it was the owner's choice to get rid of something. No locks needed. This also betrays your thought that illegal aliens don't do crimes, just "infringements".
Reply
#29
Good post Bill. We have simply Got to stop coddling criminals, including immigrants who believe the system is meant to be used.

Eventually, this will come to a head, and be a major campaign fight. The states, if they wish to maintain their autonomy, had better begin cracking down, IMO. Gah
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
“Don’t confuse me with facts, my mind is made up” — Saint Al of the Gore -
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)