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Withdrawing from The Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty
#1
Another Trump madness which should be prevented ASAP, IMO.
If the US does withdraw from this treaty the arm race starts again. This is serious.

President Donald Trump said Washington would withdraw from a landmark Cold War-era treaty

Reuters Wrote:The Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, negotiated by then-President Ronald Reagan and Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev in 1987
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#2
Its not madness if you look at this logically.  Do you not agree that Russia has been violating this treaty for some time now?  And if they have been cheating, should the West continue to hold itself to something that allows Russia to keep doing its 'thing' and we don't?  

Furthermore, how much has the West, i.e. other NATO members, been doing to shoulder a sizable portion of this expense?  If you compare this to the US's expenditures, it is very little.  The US has been carrying the majority of this burden on its shoulders since WWII.  And also, the US has spent trillions of dollars, in today's value, helping Japan, Germany, and the rest of Europe, in order to become economically successful.  Granted, this also has helped the US, but the other recipients have been the biggest winners in the economic game of "Catch-Up"

This strategy is the polar opposite of what the European allies did following WWI.  After defeating Germany and Austria-Hungry, there were so many restrictions imposed on those countries that the net result was anger and resolve to defeat the former opponents.  And the result was Hitler's NSDAP, and the much bigger war that followed.  England, France, Belgium, and other Allies willingly went about with a policy of "Getevenwithemism", and all that did was generate more anger, rage, and retribution.  This was the very thing that the US expressly refused to do.  

Fred, can you name another example of a conquerer winning a war. and then helping everyone else get to their feet again?  The US is the only world power that has not taken the conquered territory and folded it into an empire.  Can you name any other examples of this?   Banghead

I have looked at a chart showing how Russia stands economically in comparison to the US?  Its GDP is quite small, and it lags behind in almost everything else, with the exception of cheap tanks and nuclear weapons.  Those are the only things that give Russia superpower status.  Go look it up.

Furthermore, Russia is playing a Real Balancing act economically.  Its citizens now expect more economic prosperity, which places the Kremlin between "a rock and a hard place".  As a businessman, as well as one schooled in Economics, The Donald knows all this.  Further, he also knows that Russia is not the real enemy of the future.  It is PRC, i.e. Collectivist China.  

And here is something else that ALL of the Euros Must recognize, and come to grasp.  Its the old "Guns & Butter" equation.  Since WWII, the Euros have been contributing the bare minimum on the "Guns" department, and throwing almost everything into the "Butter" end of the equation.  As a result the Euros have developed the biggest accumulation of "Welfare States" the world has ever known.  That's right, Europe is one Huge Nanny State, with welfare being the king.  

And since the US is not able to shelter the Euros AND face China, Trump is having to make a Hobson's Choice in this matter.  The Euros are going to Have to contribute more toward their own security in the future.  There will have to be cuts in something, and my guess is that the Almighty Welfare State will have to shoulder the burden here.  And I'll bet you dollars to donuts that political heads will roll as a result.  The European Super-Welfare State may be coming to an end "At a theatre near you".  S5

Meanwhile Trump is concentrating on PRC as the greatest threat.
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Have a Gneiss Day!
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#3
(10-21-2018, 03:49 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: Another Trump madness which should be prevented ASAP, IMO.
If the US does withdraw from this treaty the arm race starts again. This is serious.

President Donald Trump said Washington would withdraw from a landmark Cold War-era treaty

Reuters Wrote:The Intermediate-Range Nuclear Forces Treaty, negotiated by then-President Ronald Reagan and Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev in 1987

Not madness. 

The US has been in violation of the treaty for a long time now and this simply makes official what was happening already.

This was actually unavoidable given that the treaty restricts two countries and others (notably China) are and will be developing these weapons too.

The losers in this are the Europeans, once the treaty ends it will take a little effort to move some of the Russian Calibre missiles to land positions, targeting US bases in Europe.  But then the only way Trump's reforms can succeed if Europe is destroyed, one way or another, so all to the best S6
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#4
JL Wrote:Do you not agree that Russia has been violating this treaty for some time now?

No, I don't believe Russia is violating the treaty. I mean: Of course they do. But don't tell me the US doesn't.

mv Wrote:The US has been in violation of the treaty for a long time now and this simply makes official what was happening already.
Just obvious, mv.
There are Minutemen on submarines and you think a treaty would have some effect?

The treaty is about the deployement and nobody knows where these missiles are deployed on the Russian side or on the US side.

The goal of the treaty was not to apply the rule to the letter but to reach a mutual understanding about peace between the two blocks.

Getting out of the treaty is dangerous, not because misiles are there, always been, but because it defines Russia as "the ennemy", again. You don't complain about your freind's missile deployements. Do you?
So what Trump is doing basicaly, is to call Russia a war ennemy.
It's just incedibly stupid.

Probably, Trump's tweet will never turn into law or execution. It's not even what Trump wants.
His goal is to divert the attention of the US public in the aftermath of the Tariff War mess. Change the topic. Focus the public attention to something else.

At the time of writing, he is already thinking about what could be the next fear topic to keep pretending he is dealing with many extremely important events.

JL Wrote:The Euros are going to Have to contribute more toward their own security in the future. There will have to be cuts in something, and my guess is that the Almighty Welfare State will have to shoulder the burden here.

We would like to. But Trump just decided to increase military spendings by yet another insane amount of billion of dollar.
Most of this money taken on additional debt.

So where is the logic here? First he says, like you, that Europe should "shoulder a sizable portion of this expense", that the US is spending too much. Then he increases the defense budget.
Why should we increase our defense budget, if the US do it, again, in such disproportionate way? Why do we need to spend this money, if you do it already? If Trump adds 100 billion? What are we supposed to do?

Because we already do share the burden. Many European countries and Japan are buying the F35. We are active pertner in the program. There is even a F35 factory in Italy.

JL Wrote:Further, he also knows that Russia is not the real enemy of the future. It is PRC, i.e. Collectivist China.
No: YOU said so. Donald T is just saying that the rest of the world is the enemy, sometimes one country at a time, sometimes all countries together. He doesn't have a clear idea about that but the concept is to make you believe that the rest of the world is in conflict with your interests.
Whatever, nor China or Russia is an enemy.
And China clearly isn't.

We are buying many stuffs from AliExcpress and we like it. I don't feel China is bad with me.
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