Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Trump and NATO
#1
Well, if this isn't a conundrum for the pro Trump and pro Roman empire thing I don't know what is. This article is fair I think. This man maybe or maybe not unwittingly is enhancing the odds for war. I don't think Russia is a threat to anyone outside the Baltics literally, but, this is unwise in the extreme.


 I don't think right now that Americans would even dream of a strategic nuclear exchange to keep Russia out of NATO and during the cold war it was thinkable. Would Americans even join the Army and fight over there in numbers if it was necessary? I'm not so sure, Trump has devalued these people like Mexicans and the Trump people follow his lead.


 The point Trump made is valid, very valid. But, to have it plastered in the media is another thing. I think NATO is like a chicken with it's head cut off, it's dead, doesn't know it quite yet. If that's true, the US empire restricted as well, NATO was our logistics base for operations anywhere far away from here and I hope it is dead just for that reason. 

 One last thing, in this drive to harass Germany into paying up, Trump needs advice on that. Germany and the USSR are what started NATO. We wanted to control Germany and deter the USSR and a powerful Germany is not a good thing in Europe, we kinda of have the 20 th century as an example.



https://hotair.com/archives/2018/07/11/t...tive-know/
Reply
#2
(07-11-2018, 10:38 AM)Palladin Wrote: Well, if this isn't a conundrum for the pro Trump and pro Roman empire thing I don't know what is. This article is fair I think. This man maybe or maybe not unwittingly is enhancing the odds for war. I don't think Russia is a threat to anyone outside the Baltics literally, but, this is unwise in the extreme.


 I don't think right now that Americans would even dream of a strategic nuclear exchange to keep Russia out of NATO and during the cold war it was thinkable. Would Americans even join the Army and fight over there in numbers if it was necessary? I'm not so sure, Trump has devalued these people like Mexicans and the Trump people follow his lead.


 The point Trump made is valid, very valid. But, to have it plastered in the media is another thing. I think NATO is like a chicken with it's head cut off, it's dead, doesn't know it quite yet. If that's true, the US empire restricted as well, NATO was our logistics base for operations anywhere far away from here and I hope it is dead just for that reason. 

 One last thing, in this drive to harass Germany into paying up, Trump needs advice on that. Germany and the USSR are what started NATO. We wanted to control Germany and deter the USSR and a powerful Germany is not a good thing in Europe, we kinda of have the 20 th century as an example.



https://hotair.com/archives/2018/07/11/t...tive-know/

I tend to agree here. Russia is far less a threat than traditionally feared. Their military is small, the military budget is only a fraction of the US's. and NATO really needs to be cut back from what it is. For instance, what are we doing with an Erdogan at Turkey's helm anyway, and a member in good standing?

However, there is one thing that is not stated, but true concerning NATO. And its not really Russia. Its an attempt to keep Euros from fighting each other, as was what WWI and WWII was all about. That's the REAL purpose for NATO these days, and perhaps a sound reason for keeping it alive. Perhaps we should store our hardware in strategic positions and withdraw the overwhelming majority of the troops until really needed. It would save an awful lot of money.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
--- SCHiST Happens! ---
Reply
#3
That may be a good reason for it to continue to exist. But, we're going to use it as a logistics base for our international mischief making if we remain a member. I pray we exit and stop with our interventionist paradigm since 1995.

Germany does not ever need to be a military force again. For starters.

I agree on Russia, the truth is they're not ready for a serious 2018 type war against us. I'm not arrogant about that, I just observe they are not ready and it appears a fact.

Only the Baltics are under serious pressure within NATO, if we didn't help them I think Russia could occupy them. The rest of NATO maybe France and the UK could intervene successfully, it isn't clear. I doubt they could get troopers on the ground quick enough to defend them and resupply them enough to whip the Russian Army.


That's one indispensable thing about the USA. We have built one hell of an expeditionary capability and the entire
west depends on our air superiority.

Turkey is a perfect example of how to maintain hegemony like we do, at times you must associate with creeps. Erdogan isn't even in the same class of evil as the Wahhabi Saudis are and they've been our closest ally over there since 1947. You cannot even possess a bible legally in that neanderthal dump. Yet American Christians often are perfectly fine with it because Uncle Sam is more significant to many of us than Christ is.

That was my view from 14 up until whenever I became this weirdo you perceive and Christ became my #1 and Sam became an emperor w/o any clothes.
Reply
#4
(07-11-2018, 02:02 PM)Palladin Wrote: That was my view from 14  up until whenever I became this weirdo you perceive and Christ became my #1 and Sam became an emperor w/o any clothes.

If he is indeed your #1, you have a strange way of looking at, and following, his teachings. I'm glad I do not view the universe as you currently do. The manner in which you throw everyone else into the same hate filled, evil doing, pot is most troubling to me. I haven't prayed for you in a while now, so I will make a point to include you tonight.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
--- SCHiST Happens! ---
Reply
#5
John,

Do pray for me. I always need it.

Except you perceive me wrong if you think I hate say the Saudis or the people of the USA. I don't.

I just think it's fair to speak truth about people and it is unlawful in SA to possess a bible or confess Christ as God. In jail immediately.

That's unjust and against the will of God I think.

I don't want to openly side with groups like that and the typical American Christian is good with it and I was good with it for ~ 50 years myself.

Just read Jeremiah, he stayed ticked off at Israel but he loved Israel to the core and God.

This guy pretty much speaks from where I am:

http://thefederalist.com/2018/07/11/shou...liberties/
Reply
#6
Article on Trump, NATO and Russia. You have to admit Trump is super avid to be friendly with Russia.

I don't oppose it myself, but, he sure treats NATO like crap and Putin really well. I think they do have nekkid pics of him myself. Second URL author thinks the Russians over the years have buttered him up or have goods on him and again, his vanity does make him an easy target for manipulation. I don't even care, I'm good with working with Russia cause I ain't into the Roman empire thing.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/...won-218968

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/...ait-218966
Reply
#7
(07-12-2018, 01:23 PM)Palladin Wrote: Article on Trump, NATO and Russia. You have to admit Trump is super avid to be friendly with Russia.

I don't oppose it myself, but, he sure treats NATO like crap and Putin really well. I think they do have nekkid pics of him myself. Second URL author  thinks the Russians over the years have buttered him up or have goods on him and again, his vanity does make him an easy target for manipulation.  I don't even care, I'm good with working with Russia cause I ain't into the Roman empire thing.

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/...won-218968

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/...ait-218966

I haven't had a chance to get to the second link, but what I found most interesting about the first one was the very first whole paragraph.

Quote:One of Putin’s strategic goals is dividing the Western alliance, which he views as a mortal threat. And sure enough, at Wednesday’s kickoff of the NATO summit in Brussels, Trump launched into a tirade against Germany, accusing the country of being a pawn of Moscow due to its heavy reliance on Russian natural gas. The comments shocked European diplomats, who are accustomed to gripes from American presidents about their defense spending and troop contributions, but expect to hear such complaints in private and delivered with a lot more diplomatic finesse. The Kremlin couldn’t have scripted it better.

I'm so happy that I, along with my late Father, were fortunate enough to have taken a two semester course in Russian History from the U. of Maryland, while stationed in Baumholder Germany in the mid 60s.  The professor was a retired intel colonel, who spent years in Russia, during WWII and some time after that.  We learned volumes about the Russian mentality, and why they are perhaps the most societally paranoid people on the planet.   It is almost impossible for one to relate to Russian Serfdom, and what the peasantry had to endure for centuries.   Add constant invasions by Turks from the south, Mongols from the east, and then Europeans from the west, along with all the horrors accompanying them, and we have a society that has been almost totally dysfunctional for centuries.  

So, is it any wonder that Russians suspect EVERYONE around them to be a danger to their wellbeing?  I think not.  That's why the overwhelming majority of them actually believe that the world is out to get them, and act accordingly.  I personally don't know how they are going to overcome this paranoia and finally learn to fit in with the rest of their neighbors to the west.  After all, it wasn't they who were overrunning everyone else first.  

I believe that the Russian MO is to have everyone else view them as a threat, so as to look big and bad before everyone.  That way, a possible invader would naturally have to think twice before taking on the Russians with the use of force.  

But if you look at the actual facts and numbers, The US military strength far exceeds that of Russia.  Granted, the Russians concentrate on what looks better, but in totality they are lagging quite a way behind.  The one thing Russia tends to concentrate with is total number of tanks.  But quantity and quality are two entirely different animals.  Russian tanks look far more lethal than ours, but do they really stack up?  

As for Euros, they have been coasting, riding on the US's coattails for decades.  And they have not been carrying their share of the military budget load.  Perhaps they are less worried about Russia than we do?  Perhaps they realize that Russia is not their biggest problem?  

The truth is that Europe's greatest enemy is ISLAM.  Same thing applies with the US. And so many have been totally negligent about curbing the influx of illegal immigrants, coming from.........................if you say "Islamic Countries" YOU WIN!!  They are now in danger of being destroyed from within, and they still haven't gotten the message.  

Anyway, it is ISLAM that should have them on edge.   Russia is less dangerous to them than Islam, by a mile.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
--- SCHiST Happens! ---
Reply
#8
Russia is a bully( what big state is not a bully?), so the smaller neighbors have legit fears, other than that Russia could not possibly over run a large European state and occupy it, IMO.

That second URL that man is convinced Trump is being blackmailed. He sure does like Russia.

His view of Trump and his people and what they really wanted running for POTUS is convincing to me.

BTW, NATO has not taken anymore advantage of us than we have of them. They have allowed the USA to use the entire continent for our adventures elsewhere and have helped in Afghanistan and some in Iraq. Like I said earlier, we do not want a strong Germany, no one wants a strong Germany, including most Germans.

Here's another view:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/07/11/opini...llies.html
Reply
#9
Trump visiting NATO leaders during the soccer world cup aftermath:

guy holding the door Wrote:You gonna have to be nice with some...

[Image: 36981938_10215074044338494_2925526517087...e=5BEAB6EB]
Reply
#10
The Whores are literally "Going Crackers" as our Bloke friends would say.

Video Montage: Cable News Sees the Apocalypse in Trump/Putin Summit

This one reaction alone, indicates that he really did the right thing here.  Any time the Whores manage to lose what tiny bit of sense they have remaining, you know The Donald is on to something.   S13

And even Patrick Buchanan, with whom I usually agree 50/50 hits the nail squarely on the head.

TRUMP CALLS OFF COLD WAR II

Quote:Former CIA Director John Brennan rages that, “Donald Trump’s press conference performance in Helsinki … was … treasonous. … He is wholly in the pocket of Putin. Republican Patriots: Where are you???”

Well, as Patrick Henry said long ago, “If this be treason, make the most of it!”

And in the last day or so, I have only heard, or read, from one person who really 'Gets It' as to why Trump is doing all this.  Its called "Divide and Conquer".  And the main thrust is against our Real Enemy: PRC.  He's doing this to let the Chinese know that he has them in his sights.  

And clearly China is our greatest strategic opponent, not Russia.  The other day I showed on another thread the reason why Russia Phobia is misplaced.  Their ability to wage war is nothing like what they are portrayed.  They literally cannot keep up with the US, haven't the GDP capability, and are a tiny fraction of what China's capability happens to be.  

This is all about China, and peeling away their allies, what few they have.  Spiteful
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
--- SCHiST Happens! ---
Reply
#11
On this rare occasion I would concur with John, albeit a couple of things need to be noticed:

MoA analysis is better than Buchanan's, in part because it goes into Kissinger's approach to this.

Trump's triangle rebalancing is a near-impossible task, given that the US in totally untrustworthy.  Still, watching the Sungod try is amusing.

And of course the mankind will be better off with the US totally eliminated rather than being a part of the concert of powers.
Reply
#12
I guess being in a solitary category means nothing? When the USA has an economy that dwarfs all other countries, including China, there just may be more incentive to work with us, than to think us untrustworthy. All countries may be untrustworthy, but there is a far greater reward for being with us than against us.
Reply
#13
Quote:When the USA has an economy that dwarfs

Let's not confuse economy with creative bookkeeping. S6

As for untrustworthy : this is not really a big issue, as long as the US can be maneuvered into a position of doing irreparable damage to itself. So far Trump is doing fine.
Sodomia delenda est

Reply
#14
Trump is not doing irreparable damage to the country, in fact, he is greatly improving the country, in it's successs, and it's standing amongst nations.

[Image: president-donald-trump-2017-achievements...g.com_.jpg]

Creative bookkeeping? Let's add your name to the list of "Misfortunes."
Reply
#15
That list is certainly objective!

Except for almost all of it. "Massive tax cuts for the middle class" my ass, what a stupid ass statement. I bet it saved me 1.5 dollars a week. It was for the wealthy and businesses. I'm for the business part, wealthy people are not over taxed in our nation, not now, they were when Reagan cut taxes.


Concerning Russia, NATO, etc. I think NATO is done.

I know you think Trump is "helping " NATO, but, you don't understand it was based on confidence and that's been removed when Trump repeatedly has stated for the US to side with NATO in combat it is a payment situation, "did you pay enough"?

The Europeans no longer "know" if it's a thing and neither does Russia or Turkey. People don't kill other people for money in mass numers,most of us have higher calling that Trump has. That confidence cannot be returned, the cat is out of the bag. Truth is we probably would not have fought post 1990 in a serious war effort. Once the USSR died, so did the big fear that drove us to be willing to have a nuclear exchange.

Myself I'm against our foreign policy so I cheer it's demise, but, NATO was the lynchpin of US Roman Empire work and it's not gonna be possible long term anymore w/o NATO.
Reply
#16
Quote:Massive tax cuts for the middle class" my ass, what a stupid ass statement.

personally prefer "lowest unemployment" -- it attests to the creative bookkeeping thesis.

as for NATO: it is really very simply. Trump thinks money. 2% (now 4%) is the money mostly spent on costly US hardware.
Trump wants a capital flow that will keep the US afloat a bit longer and drain Europe. Europeans do not seem to like the idea,
and watching them struggle will make for a nice show indeed.
It is highly unlikely Trump will get anything out of Germany or Italy or even the UK *right now*... but he may succeed with the French.... and this
would make for another great show : pitting the French against the Germans.

Now, Germans are really dumb, but eventually they will remember Dresden.... S2
Sodomia delenda est

Reply
#17
Poeple are wierd: Putin helped Trump win the elections. So, who expected Trump to embarrass Putin about that?

And why would you expect Trump to stop working with the russian team if it's so successful?

Calling it a treason is far fetched because Russia would have to be an ennemy in the first place. IMO, it's positive that this story makes Russia and the US closer. Trump can invite Putin to see the country he interfered with from afar.
Beside that, I don't think Russia or Putin have much influence on US politics. In some cases, it's not what Putin really wanted.

I don't think the Trump-Putin meeting was important at all, beyond protocolar diplomacy. Trump, personally hasn't much to tell Putin, he doesn't have much opinion on international affairs. And Putin never tell anything that can be relevant. Putin tries to look serious and righteous but he doesn't care, doesn't give a damn about politics. His only business is oil. Trump is also in for business, in in this sens, he can go along with Putin very well, but he also has some personal ideas about a few themes not related to his personal fortune, which Putin totaly lacks of. Putin would talk about various themes, to make poieple hear what they want to hear but will never do anything in reality.

mv Wrote:as for NATO: it is really very simply. Trump thinks money. 2% (now 4%) is the money mostly spent on costly US hardware.
Trump wants a capital flow that will keep the US afloat a bit longer and drain Europe. Europeans do not seem to like the idea,
and watching them struggle will make for a nice show indeed.
True.
It's also that in Europe, we don't want to waste money for something we don't really need. Yes, Russia is a potential treath (who else?). Yes, Europe could and should spend a little bit more than we currently do. But let's be serious: Russia has no plan to invade eastern Europe, not even the Baltics, and Ukraine is not Europe.

Europe is making a significant effort with the F35 program.
This both the US still being an important partner in NATO and Europe following up with their responsabilities (not relying 100% on the US)

Palladin Wrote:Trump repeatedly has stated for the US to side with NATO in combat it is a payment situation, "did you pay enough"?
That's what Trump said. In other words, you can dismiss it. Trump is only one of many tweeter user. See what the real governement is doing.

Palladin Wrote:"Massive tax cuts for the middle class" my ass, what a stupid ass statement. I bet it saved me 1.5 dollars a week.
Most of these achievements are either irrelevant or not true.
For example "diplomacy" (because it's the "international politics" thread), is total BS.
Trump ruined relations with China with his tariffs. Japan and UK relations have never been bad, neither improved nor degraded, and Russian relations..., well, Trump owes to be greatfull to Russia a little bit, don't you think?.
Thougher stance on N-K: I'm sorry??? Just the opposite, but that's not a bad thing.
Thougher stance on Syria: Just disengaging as never before. Which is not a bad thing neither.
Terminating the Iran is and will be a disaster that every other countries try to fix desperately. Iran has immediately restarted their nuke program and the US can't do anything about it. (IMO Trump did this to boost oil prices.)

Other themes are for "US politics", if you want to discuss them.
Reply
#18
(07-21-2018, 07:21 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: ...Putin helped Trump win the elections. So, who expected Trump to embarrass Putin about that?

If anything Putin would have aided Hillary. Her record was clear. Funnel her enough money, and she'll give away 20% of our Uranium. She was the one with the reset button. Her and Obama drew a red line that was ignored, started ISIS, told Vlad that he would be more flexible, and ignored Crimea and Iran.
Reply
#19
Only William can't see that Russia spent millions on both hacking Hillary's emails which is probably why Trump won and spent millions on FACEBOOK ADS that pitted all of us against each other.

The ADS IMO are not responsible for anything except exacerbating hatred between us like right wing Americans do with ethnic Mexicans, black folks and non GOP voters. If most were not dispensationalist Israel worshippers, they'd also be anti semites.

The emails are almost certainly what swung the election and Russia hacked her emails AFTER Trump publicly asked them to. Immediately afterwards. Trump dealing with Russia in this manner is not illegal FWIW.

Now, here's something I never heard of until this morning. Man, talking about apostate Christians, this crew has had strong influence in the USA since the 1950s. Bear in mind the post is a right wing publication.

https://nypost.com/2018/07/21/why-the-ch...ced-putin/
Reply
#20
(07-22-2018, 11:27 AM)Palladin Wrote: Only William can't see that Russia spent millions on both hacking Hillary's emails which is probably why Trump won and spent millions on FACEBOOK ADS that pitted all of us against each other.

Totally agree with Palladin. 
The quasi-democracy in Sodomland is so vulnerable that a few well placed facebook posts can swing the "elections" any way the Master wants. 
Trump is a known Kremlin agent, developed over the decades as the Trump Card (do you really think his surname is accidental?).
He was on Putin's payroll ever since he visited Moscow as a student back in 1969.
(oh, that was Bill Clinton ... but what difference does it make? -- © Hillary )
And Trump eats Guatemalan girls for breakfast solely as to erase the remains of the moral foundations of the American dream. 
Palladin, that was a joke, right?
-----
Now, more seriously: Trump did score a major victory over Putin in the meeting : he got Vlad's permission to evacuate US assets from S-W Syria.  600 White Helmet terrorists crossed the Israeli border to Jordan.  These people are all-American heroes, just like good folk from Nusra, Al Queda and ISIS, and Trump saved them from the revenge of their victims!

Rejoice!
Sodomia delenda est

Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)