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Fixing/Removing ObamaCare
#41
(03-14-2017, 10:38 AM)Ron Lambert Wrote:
(03-13-2017, 10:51 PM)John L Wrote: "your assumption that Your Party is clean as the wind driven snow and beyond stupid?   Not everyone who loves Liberty actually loves Your Party, come rain or shine Bill.

We cannot expect perfection in anything human. But we can encourage that which comes the closest to going in the right direction. Of the two parties that are THE ONLY ONES with any chance of winning elections, which is better--the Democrats or the Republicans? Whatever faults you may find with the Republicans, none of them equal those of the socialist, tyrannical, totally collectivist party that appropriately has a Jackass for its symbol, and would actually run a career murderous felon as its presidential candidate.

I have previously used the example from horticulture--those plant breeders who sought for decades to develop a blue rose, did not give up and throw out all the seeds and plants that did not meet their goal. They selected the specimens that seemed to be heading in the right direction, such as those with a maroon color. Eventually their patience was rewarded when they finally came up with a truly blue rose. My contention is that it is the same in politics. If we refuse to vote for anyone who does not represent 100% what we want, we will get nothing but what we do not desire, and will never, ever get what we want. That is how reality works. In politics as well as everything else. Even God does not cast aside Christians who are only partly sanctified. He works with them daily to help them grow in grace--those who are willing to continue growing.

Blue Rose

Ron, first of all, I am not an enabler. I learned this the hard way with Dianne, my first wife. She was the love of my life. But after we married, she became an alcoholic and I tried learning to live with it until it almost drove me crazy. That's right, I was her enabler, and it almost destroyed both of us.

I finally had to get up and leave before it killed me. So I have learned something that you and your brother have yet to do. And you two are not alone. But know this. The more you enable those DC power elites, the worse things will become before you finally have to leave in order to maintain your sanity. Believe me, there is only one thing, at this point, that will work. They have to be "Whigged Out" and a new representative of lovers of Liberty put in their place. Because they are not interested in what they originally committed themselves to do.

And if you continue 'enabling' them, they will keep disappointing their followers. And it will only get worse with time. You don't believe me? Then just keep enabling them and see what I mean.
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“Don’t confuse me with facts, my mind is made up” — Saint Al of the Gore -
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#42
John,

The GOP could go nuclear on OC, but, they don't have votes themselves because the problem is intractable. They can't get rid( according to them) of the "previous disease exemption" and that's what is driving Insurance firms nuts. Obama thought he could force kids to buy insurance and make up the difference. He was wrong.

They are in a quandary and the GOP bill just moves costs from kids to you and myself. It may be a worse deal.

There are some easy things they could do.

1) Raise the health savings account tax write off big time and open up what we can spend it on to over the counter items as long as they are medical oriented.

2) Let ALL people deduct out of pocket expenses, not just high end folks that can exceed the 12K threshold on tax exemptions..

These are easy things to help regular people. Never happens with either party cause neither serve the interests of anyone but people with more money. Same as writing off home interest, my son can't write his off on his $89K home, but, Trump can on 2 of his $35 million dollar homes. That's unjust bullsh.it and it's how this nation is oriented.
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#43
(03-14-2017, 02:59 PM)Palladin Wrote: There are some easy things they could do.

1) Raise the health savings account tax write off big time and open up what we can spend it on to over the counter items as long as they are medical oriented.

2) Let ALL people deduct out of pocket expenses, not just high end folks that can exceed the 12K threshold on tax exemptions..

These are easy things to help regular people. Never happens with either party cause neither serve the interests of anyone but people with more money. Same as writing off home interest, my son can't write his off on his $89K home, but, Trump can on 2 of his $35 million dollar homes. That's unjust bullsh.it and it's how this nation is oriented.

Would that tend to moderate your position?
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“Don’t confuse me with facts, my mind is made up” — Saint Al of the Gore -
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#44
It would tend to make me say, "they're actually doing something for someone other than their wealthy pals!"

Do you dislike these ideas?
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#45
(03-14-2017, 04:13 PM)Palladin Wrote: It would tend to make me say, "they're actually doing something for someone other than their wealthy pals!"

Do you dislike these ideas?

Oh hell no. But both parties have allowed themselves become corrupted by money. They're both guilty, the Jackasses more so.
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“Don’t confuse me with facts, my mind is made up” — Saint Al of the Gore -
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#46
Yes, but, it is the GOP in charge now. I know you don't respect them either, just pointing it out. They are all entirely bought off.
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#47
(03-14-2017, 02:59 PM)Palladin Wrote: ...They can't get rid( according to them) of the "previous disease exemption" and that's what is driving Insurance firms nuts.

Incorrect. Prior to ObamaCare Most people had insurance. If one has insurance, pre-conditions do not apply and the provider covers them. All those conditions got covered by the Insurance industry combined with Hospital charity. A few pre-conditions happened with uninsured, and lack of insurance skewered them. These outliers all had sob-stories, but the problem was never that we couldn't give them care.
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#48
I am dealing with what GOP leaders have openly said, they are not even considering getting rid of the "PRE condition" part of OC. You are dealing in William Lambert opinion world.

It obviously is a huge problem politically or they would drop it because then the entire thing is fairly easy to remedy w/o that killer section.

People no longer get jobs and retire 40 years later, so portability is important to them. Your life is not how the rest of humanity has it. I, like you, have been very fortunate, but, I am not against those less fortunate getting a break.

Here's more traditional conservative logic against this plan you like from National Review:

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/44...t-argument

Here's a look at how they can contain costs, by making it difficult for older folks. That simply is not going to fly. Of all people, oldsters vote. Again, this won't harm me since I have employer INS, it will never pass though:

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/14/upshot/no-magic-in-how-gop-plan-lowers-premiums-it-penalizes-older-people.html?action=click&contentCollection=U.S.&module=Trending&version=Full®ion=Marginalia&pgtype=article
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#49
(03-14-2017, 07:39 PM)Palladin Wrote: People no longer get jobs and retire 40 years later, so portability is important to them. Your life is not how the rest of humanity has it. I, like you, have been very fortunate, but, I am not against those less fortunate getting a break. 

Palladin, it's not really portability ... it's affordability.  The entire thing is a MSRP system on steroids.  It's been fostered by the notion that somebody else will pay ... so who the hell cares about paying MSRP?  30 years ago, you went to the doctor, and insurance covered the full cost, so who gives a shit what it costs? right? 20 years ago we had co-pays ... anybody remember co-pays?  You went to the doctor and paid $15 or $20 (hell I think they started at $5) .... without wondering is this really costing only $15 or $20??  Who gave a crap?  Because it was only about $15 or $20 to see the doctor ... so you get a sniffle, you see the doctor right?  Except it didn't really cost $15 or $20 did it? ... it cost maybe $50-70 (closer to $150-200 today) ... but who gives a crap? ... cuz I'm not paying the difference.  THAT is what spawned the world we are living in.  Now I pay the full cost of going to the doctor right up the the point that I hit the deductible, which by the grace of God, I haven't.  And I know damn well what a doctor visit costs ... and I know damn well that Walgreens little clinic charges about half for small stuff.  Suddenly ... after decades ... cost now matters when it comes to my health care ... and suddenly I'm paying attention to those costs.  Unfortunately, THAT is what it takes to make it 'affordable' ... all the ACA did is make it more expensive ... by making me pay for stuff I don't need ... like mandatory birth control ... not because I'm against birth control mind you ... but because I'm a GUY Palladin.  The lesson here is that the most certain way of making something prohibitively expensive is to delude yourself into believing it should be free for all.

If it was affordable, it could be portable ... because I'd be able to pay for it.  Instead, a private, individual, independent insurance policy for my family costs more than my mortgage.  If insurance companies were allowed to compete across state lines, maybe that 'portability' could maybe happen.  But the Dems have no interest in helping with that.  Their mission right now is to make virtually nothing happen.  If all the feel good bells and whistles were removed from ACA, that would probably help too ... but close to half the legislature is vehemently opposed.  A health care inflation rate of 10-15% is simply not sustainable.  It wasn't before ACA and it certainly isn't after ACA.  THAT is the demon that is staring us in the face.  If we can deal with THAT, we can start figuring out how to provide a more generous way of treating the indigent and less fortuante.  And if we can't we're ALL totally f**ked ... preexisting conditions or not ... because eventually, we'll all end up getting sick enough to need serious care that no one will be able to afford.  Pardon, but about one half of Congress is actually making a feeble attempt to deal with this ... while the other half appears to have a clear vested interest in us ALL being totally f**cked. Perhaps this might sound better if I put it in leftist terms ... like we'll all be 'equally' f**cked. (?)
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#50
Yak,

I agree OC didn't generate affordability and I realize the pre conditions things raises costs, but, it is here to stay Yak.

When the GOP says it stays, it stays. You have to go from there.

There are some reasonable improvements to make, but, far as I can see, the GOP bill only leaves older folks hung out to dry and puts a few million folks back in the no insurance paradigm that need it( not talking about youngsters).

Trump's promise was not to do that. Trump knew nothing about this issue at all.

The new bill does save money for the treasury, that's true. There is nothing else in it that I can see that is good. Putting those folks out of the insurance program assures the congress goes democrat next time, even conservative pundits know that. Cruz said so years ago, people would be addicted to the subsidies.

How could you enhance OC and keep the pre condition paradigm? I don't know.

I think enhancing health savings accounts( make them way more liberal), allowing all people below X income to deduct off the bottom of your taxes out of pocket expenses up to X amount, including your premiums AND the insurance firm's outlays could be pre tax like corporate health insurance is say for GE.

Those are things that are easy, free market oriented and they don't seem interested.

BTW, I'm paying more, too. My out of pockets went from $500 to $15000 under OC. Thank the people of the USA who aren't so into indivudal responsibility, don't get pissed at me. I've worked since I was 16.
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#51
(03-15-2017, 01:47 PM)Palladin Wrote: ...  don't get pissed at me. I've worked since I was 16.

Who said anything about being pissed off at you?  I'm merely stating the fact that unless costs are controlled, access is going to become nearly impossible ... regardless of whether you are insured or not.  And the reason it's this way is because no one's paid attention to actually controlling costs for decades and decades ... because people, until recently, didn't think they needed to worry about it.  ACA facilitated that thinking.  Everything is focused on exclusively insurance coverage ... and coverage is not the same as 'access'.  Here's a scary example.  Even now we're not focusing on the right stuff because the only topic that we hear about is 'guaranteeing' coverage.  Hopefully the GOP can keep going to a "phase 4" or something that actually begins to address the stuff that is getting ignored in the din.  I'm convinced that it would be a much worse disaster if Dems had done what they expected to do in the last election.  It would all be about 'fixing' something that was deliberately designed to be broken, taunting Congress and doubling down on their next step of single payer, full government controlled, 'guaranteed' healthcare ... which would virtually guarantee that access will become virtually impossible except for the wealthy and well connected.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#52
Let it collapse.
The true purpose of democracy is not to select the best leaders — a clearly debatable obligation — but to facilitate the prompt and peaceful removal of obviously bad ones. 
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#53
Yak,

I may be naïve, but, I think we could find a middle term based on real free market thinking. This thing isn't much about that. It just shifts the costs to older folks from younger and drops coverage for a few million who need it.

That's not a winning deal IMO.
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#54
(03-15-2017, 10:38 PM)Palladin Wrote: Yak,

I may be naïve, but, I think we could find a middle term based on real free market thinking.

It's not naïve to believe that a free market compromise could be 'found', it's naïve to believe it could be passed.  Half of Congress will steadfastly refuse to vote yea on anything at all as part of their strategic temper tantrum.  And the other half isn't exactly monolithic.  Passing any change at all is going to be tantamount to a miracle.

(03-15-2017, 10:38 PM)Palladin Wrote: It just shifts the costs to older folks from younger ...

Speaking as an old fart, I hear ya. But from a fairness standpoint, how is that any different from the entire foundation of ACA which forces the healthier and younger to pay for the older and sicker? I'd love to believe that Social Security will be around in a few years when I need it ... right up to the point that I start worrying about the enormous bite it's going to eventually take out of my kid's paycheck in order to keep it going. How exactly am I still going to be able to look in him the eye when the half of my paycheck that I'm allowed to take home shrinks to 25% of his in the years to come?
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#55
(03-15-2017, 01:47 PM)Palladin Wrote: ...How could you enhance OC and keep the pre condition paradigm? I don't know.

My point was never that Pre-conditions would go away with repeal of ObamaCare. It has been promised to remain - and I said it was no big deal. We had it before ObamaCare in all our policies. The only ones without it were those with no insurance, which was a very small percentage. Those people did get health care, but only after they were drained of whatever savings they had. Hospitals always did catastrophic care as charity - and deducted it on their taxes.
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#56
Yak,

I agree it is unfair to force youth to buy in.

William,

Gonna have to disagree. Insurance firms could deny coverage before OC passed on pre conditions. They cannot now.
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#57
(03-16-2017, 09:25 PM)Palladin Wrote: Insurance firms could deny coverage before OC passed on pre conditions. They cannot now.

Wrong.  What about when Insurance Companies simply leave the local markets?  ACA may compel individual participation ... but there's nothing in the law that forces Insurance Companies to continue to do business in local ACA Market Places.  It's silly to believe they can't still "deny coverage" when companies are leaving the poorer prospects in droves.  Median age in Yavapai County Az. featured in the linked article is about 50 ... what does that tell you Palladin?

And what about when people are 'insured' but still don't have 'access' to health care?

I understand you are critical of GOP changes.  But there's really no choice.  Trump understands this.  That's why he's going full throat on Ryan's plan (such as it is) rather than running away from it. ACA is crumbling to ruin ... while all the Dems remain on the sidelines laughing at the mess they created and beckoning catastrophe ... #bunch of *ssholes!!
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#58
Still, Yak, IF you do health insurance business in any area in the USA, you cannot deny coverage for previous health issues under OC and you could before OC.
William made a statement that was inaccurate about this issue.

You're right, if a firm decides to avoid a poor area, they can do that.

I feel like OC was a "health insurance firm" subsidy plan myself in return for covering more folks. I have a special angst at wealthy people stealing from average/poor people. They have it made w/o doing that.

As far as the replacement, I am not even aware of many details, I just know rural poor folks are going to be shafted if that plan goes forward and they are why Trump is not on "The Apprentice". I don't get that.

I also don't get the simple free market ideas are being ignored, including creating the pre tax paradigm for the individual market that exists for the employer based market. Even the democrats would probably buy most those ideas and most people would.
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#59
[Image: Samaritan-Health-Care.jpeg?w=600]
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#60
OK, here are some details on how the GOP is going to screw their supporters out in rural , poor areas. I for one am done ever voting for the creeps.

This doesn't save the treasury 1 penny.

Help your billionaire friends while those poor folks ignorant enough to vote for you get shafted.

I am done with this crew forever. If I vote again for POTUS, it will be a democrat. I doubt I waste the time ever again.

http://hotair.com/archives/2017/03/18/an...s-in-2018/
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