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Forthcoming European Disharmony............
#41
Mr Y Wrote:Hey Fred,

Curious about this statement with regards to whether Le Pen was helped all that much by the terror attack.
Quote:The French are unfortunately getting used to terror attacks on home soil and I don’t think this latest one created the shock and awe that might have made a significant difference,”
My son was a bit shocked when we went on a family vacation last year. He's bought into the whole line that the U.S. is as dangerous as Iraq and virtually anywhere else in the world is safer ... although our town and county is probably one of the quietest and safest in the country. He'd never seen military patrolling airports and city streets with automatic weapons at the ready. I've been watching the increased security patrols in Paris. Except for brief immediate responses after an event, I don't think that would fly in this country. Such a thing would draw much larger protests against the "heavy handedness" of the police. Have Europeans really grown completely complacent about this sort of thing?

In France it's been at least 20 years that the military assists police in sensitive locations like airports, busy streets and so on.
It's a prgram called VigiPirate.
I other countries, they started doing it after the wave of attacks in 2016.
Sometimes to a ridiculous level when you have armored army truck parked near subways entrances. In this case poeple complain more about waste of money and politicians doing it for the show while they have no idea how to effectively fight terrorism.
Generaly it's well accepted. Poeple feel safe. As we are not jihadist, we don't feel targeted.


Briebart Wrote:In another interview shortly after the shooting, Macron described radical Islamic terrorism as and “imponderable problem” which would be “part of our daily lives for the years to come”.

The biggest problem with Macron is that he is very leniant toward islamists. In some districts, islamists are infiltrating his newly created party. It's making kind of a scandal among the french who are on watch for these issues. One islamist was finaly dissmissed but he has been very slow to react.
It's like he doens't want to kick the wasp net.

About his quoted reported by Briebart (assumed it's properly translated) he sined by excess of virtue. He is too much a realistic guy to win the emotional earth of the french voters. (The extreme opposite of Trump strylisticaly).

IMO he is right and realistic that this type of terrorism won't go away anytime soon, can happen at anytime anywhere and there is nothing you can do about it.
So, yes, we will have to live with it. It doesn't mean he won't fight islamo-terrorism. Of course he will. But he's not going to rethink the whole anti-terrorist apparatus because one policeman was shot dead on the Champ Elysee.

But Briebart is of course pro-Le Pen. So you can expect them to describe Macron as weak and coward.

Palladin Wrote:That comment about Islamists is a good quote.
She didn't say Islam, just Islamists and she's accurate.
No she isn't.
She should name a cat, "a cat" and say it's Islam the problem.
She carefuly keeps short of telling so. Hence she doesn't say much more than others. Everybody agree that Islamism is a problem, even the left.

But thos who vote Le Pen do it, IMO, moslty because they are fed with this religion and the retarded muslim way of life.
If you hate Islam and don't care about any other question such as ethic and economy, you vote Le Pen. Period.
Now if you start thinking one minute about her program, which is 99% unrelated to this question, and start thinking what could be the consequences, you vote for the other candidate immediately. Those who vote Le Pen have no idea what they are doing. They only think that she is the one who are against immigration, islam and the presence of color poeple round the block. they don't think about anything else.

JL Wrote:If this is the unpopular Hollande's idea of helping his former protege, perhaps he should keep his mouth shut.

Hollande is not popular but he is not hated neither. Honnestly speaking he didn't do anything bad. But he was a soft leader.
Saying that Macron is Hollande 2.0 is abusive. He is obviousely another person.
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#42
(04-29-2017, 07:38 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: In France it's been at least 20 years that the military assists police in sensitive locations like airports, busy streets and so on.
It's a prgram called VigiPirate.
I other countries, they started doing it after the wave of attacks in 2016.
Sometimes to a ridiculous level when you have armored army truck parked near subways entrances. In this case poeple complain more about waste of money and politicians doing it for the show while they have no idea how to effectively fight terrorism.
Generaly it's well accepted. Poeple feel safe. As we are not jihadist, we don't feel targeted.





The biggest overall problem with Macron is that he is very leniant toward islamists. In some districts, islamists are infiltrating his newly created party. It's making kind of a scandal among the french who are on watch for these issues. One islamist was finaly dissmissed but he has been very slow to react.
It's like he doens't want to kick the wasp net.

About his quoted reported by Briebart (assumed it's properly translated) he sined by excess of virtue. He is too much a realistic guy to win the emotional earth of the french voters. (The extreme opposite of Trump strylisticaly).

IMO he is right and realistic that this type of terrorism won't go away anytime soon, can happen at anytime anywhere and there is nothing you can do about it.


The "biggest overall problem" is that Europe ... at least in large public places, in particular airports, requires the permanent protection of well armed soldiers as a 'normal' part of life.  From an American standpoint, this seems pretty unacceptable.  I've not seen any place in this country where there is a permanent presence of "military assets" in order to make people feel safe.  Your second statement puts this in perspective ... it's become "well accepted".  Leniency toward terrorists is considered 'routine'.  It's been permanently accepted as your 'normal'.  Your follow up regarding Macron sums it up.  The French will ultimately accept the status quo.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#43
Itùs only increased security measures. Police are there to interract with poeple. Soldiers are there to secure the perimeter (and normaly don't interract with poeple). If a policeman is shot dead by a AK47 salvo, there is another guy with a FAMAS or a FAL to shot dead the jihadist. Police on routine patrols don't carry such guns.
In Europe there is at least one deadly encounter with the Religion of Peace every month. If the US had this rate of terrorist attacks, you would see humvees at every block corner.
I don't understand why it's a "big overall problem"...
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#44
(04-30-2017, 04:04 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: Itùs only increased security measures. Police are there to interract with poeple. Soldiers are there to secure the perimeter (and normaly don't interract with poeple). If a policeman is shot dead by a AK47 salvo, there is another guy with a FAMAS or a FAL to shot dead the jihadist. Police on routine patrols don't carry such guns.
In Europe there is at least one deadly encounter with the Religion of Peace every month. If the US had this rate of terrorist attacks, you would see humvees at every block corner.
I don't understand why it's a "big overall problem"...

Fred, one of the big differences is that an awful lot of Americans go around armed, because we have a 2nd Amendment right to do so.  You never see this in Europe,....because they are naturally civilized and don't wish to live in some Wild West, correct?  And horrors of horrors, there are far more guns here than citizens.  Spiteful

Naturally, armed citizens would almost always be one of the first on the scene and able to respond with force.  Criminals, as well as terrorists know this and tend to go for places that advertise themselves as a "No guns Allowed" zone.  95% of the time it takes place in those zones
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#45
(04-30-2017, 04:04 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: In Europe there is at least one deadly encounter with the Religion of Peace every month. If the US had this rate of terrorist attacks, you would see humvees at every block corner.
I don't understand why it's a "big overall problem"...

We don't have humvees at every corner Fred ... if we did, it would damn well be considered a "big overall problem" ... you have a problem that is very apparent to those who are unused to seeing "Soldiers there to secure the perimeter" IOW ... you don't actually 'SEE' a problem ... because you've become well accustomed to it.  The question is how or why have you been so willing to tolerate this for decades?

Per John's post, many in the U.S. are plenty nervous and chafe about legally carried arms that are totally invisible.  Most San Francisco soccer Mom's would get the vapors if they had walk past soldiers with openly carried machine guns in the course of their every day activities.  It simply would not be tolerated.  And yet in Europe, it seems to be a fixture of every day existence.


Don't you ever wonder about that Fred?
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#46
I don't know about you folks in Colorado Jack, but here in the South, most of the states have an "Open Carry" law that allows gun owners to carry handguns on their hip.  I've seen quite a few around here, and it would make no waves, other than just a second look.  I'm sure rifles are also part of the law, but that is more effort than a handgun.  

I haven't seen any "No Gun Zone" signs here in quite a while now, since several academic publications have discovered that those signs attract far more criminals than regular businesses. Most of the Progressive store owners don't seem to mind anymore, for some unknown reason. S13

Down here, we take our 2nd Amendment seriously.  Yankees moving down here are initially perplexed, but most of them soon get used to it.
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#47
(04-30-2017, 09:12 PM)John L Wrote: I don't know about you folks in Colorado Jack, but here in the South, most of the states have an "Open Carry" law that allows gun owners to carry handguns on their hip.  I've seen quite a few around here, and it would make no waves, other than just a second look.  I'm sure rifles are also part of the law, but that is more effort than a handgun.  

Down here, we take our 2nd Amendment seriously.  Yankees moving down here are initially perplexed, but most of them soon get used to it.

Depends on the locality.  Colorado state law legally permits open carry, but Denver and other venues basically contravene state law.  And these contradictions have actually been upheld by the State Supreme Court ... which is overwhelmingly Democrat ... go figure eh?  I grew up in a community in Arizona where open carry was very common ... except for bars which had large "deadly weapons prohibited" signs at the door.  

Boulder County where I live frowns on the practice ... but has been much less intrusive at contra-enforcement of state law than Denver.  Still, it's likely that the cops would show up and would more or less patiently try to get you to leave a public (Yuppie) area.  

The point that I'm making is that people would make a loud complaint about a permanent military presence at the Pearl Street Mall (Hippie epicenter of Boulder) or Denver International Airport ... or any U.S. airport.  Seriously John, when was the last time you encountered military patrols with automatic weapons at a U.S. airport or ordinary public venue?  You see it when SWAT shows up at a crime scene ... and then they disperse.  I haven't been to our nation's capital, so it's possible it could be common there but I've not seen it in any news footage.  We walked down Downing St. in London (past #10) and (granted that I've not been in the military) I've never seen so many openly displayed machine guns in public places in my entire life ... and I've been to a heck of a lot of gun shows.  Europeans most likely hate guns ... but they seem oblivious to the fact that they require military protection of their public places.  They've come to accept it almost unconsciously ... and they don't really seem to question why it's necessary.  For them, based on Fred's post, it's not considered a "big overall problem".

'Normal' in Britain
[Image: armed-police-on-high-security-alert-at-n...frxfm7.jpg]
'Normal' in France
[Image: PARIS-SHOOTING_POST08.jpg]
'Normal' Netherlands
[Image: bc0a35ff3670c431935336c5ebcf9cd2.jpg]
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#48
Jack, I don't really ever remember seeing troops guarding public places, much less private establishments.  And of all the places I've been around the world, growing up as an Army Brat, I haven't seen it much either.  You don't really see it on military posts either, except MPs who lead convoys or stand guard at parade rest at headquarters.  But thats more for show than security, although that is also a factor.  

I never saw it in Japan, Alaska, or Europe in the 60s and early 70s either, except the border where there was a heavy military presence in the Cold War.  But then there was no real presence of Islam there, with the exception of Turkish workers in Germany during that country's economic burst.

Granted, in Korea, there was always a heavy military presence in and around Seoul, and other cities, because North Koreans (UIs) were always working to infiltrate south and sabotage or assassinate public figures.  That was a Real Threat, and the ROKS, along with US forces were serious about providing security to the ROKS.

This thing of having armed troops all over the place in Europe today, and the willingness to accept it, is part and parcel of the Europeans feeling comfortable with having a Nanny State, and big ones at that, which are there to protect the citizens from harm.  They have become so dependent that the first thing they do is look to Big Government to do things they should be doing for themselves.  They've been so indoctrinated into thinking that firearms are the work of the devil.  After all, there have been two terrible wars there, and firearms are part of the reason they assign blame.  They forget that when they place their safety in the hands of those who are not personally invested in them, they can also be held hostage against their will.  

Of course, they're too civilized for that to ever happen again, right?  The truth is that an unarmed society is a vulnerable one, but they cannot see it somehow.  Gah

Thank heavens we still have our Constitution to preserve these Liberties, regardless what the Progressive Loonies keep trying to do.
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#49
This Powerline article is enlightening: LE PEN UPSTAGES MACRON IN HIS HOME TOWN.

Like it or not, this clearly illustrates just who is more willing to think outside the box and have more flexibility. She's willing to take chances, and think big, while Macron is more the typical politician.

So, as the article hints, its really a "Win-Win" for her either way in the end. Even if she doesn't win the election, her policies are going to go mainstream, and she will not be fading into obscurity. It will be interesting to see just how well she is received once the election is over.
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#50
One of the reasons we don't see SWAT teams all over the place in the US may be part and parcel with the research and studies put out by the Criminal Justice Institute, where I worked for awhile. We put together the training programs for law enforcement - and part of that was the public display. I know that before we started this training, the police were using 1931 programs and policies that encouraged adverse response. Nothing attracts shooting like a bunch of police cars with flashing lights.

Now, if there is an incident, the police set up a command position out of sight of any perps, and first get innocents out of the way. If there is a problem, somewhere, it is hard to spot the full response, but be assured it is there.

That is not to say that the knowledge that guns are allowed is not a positive. There is no argument that the main magnet for shootings are the no-gun-zone signs. Bars are tricky because alcohol and guns are a bad mix - but I assure you again that the barkeep and others will have weapons available.

BTW; research says that the best sign that will prevent break-ins is one that says,"Aunt Martha - do not let yourself in! The panther got out of its cage and is loose, inside. The police and zoo officials are on the way. We'll all be there, soon!"
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#51
Jack and John, you are talking BS.
Heavily armed personel are only in very busy downtown centers, airports, central train stations and in front of parliament. (Downing Street is where the prime minister's office is. You would expect some higher protection overthere.)
If you walk there as a tourist, you'll seen them. Not if you come visit my parents in the outskirt.

There was a time, in Belgium, right after the subway attacks, when there were a lot of military on display. Poeple found that a little bit stupid. Then the soldiers went back to their barracks.
Nobody thought about wether it should be accepted or not in a freee country.
The governement decided to move some military trucks in pedestrian streets. Everybody knows it's because Islamists were doing bomb attacks a few days ago. Somewhere else, it's because a guy stole a truck and drive it through the crowd killing dozern. Of course we accept it.
What do you want to do when you have terrorist ready to do anything to kill poeple indiscriminately? It's not your open carry six-shot that's going to stop them. They have suitcases full of explosives.

But it's not our daily life. Outside the famous location you won't see any.

In the US, I think you are facing more often small criminal violence, like robberies, mugging... and having a gun with you may help. It's a completely different matter. A thief, generaly don't want to be killed and is interrested in making profits safely. By contrast the jihadist knows that he will die the day he will kill for Allah.



JL Wrote:She's willing to take chances, and think big, while Macron is more the typical politician.
She is thinking nuts! She is a first category idiot!

Le Pen said capital controls were an option if there was a run on banks as she negotiated France's exit from the European Union

I'm telling you, for the 1000th time, that if she is president it's the ruin of the country and the ruin of all Europe in a matter of weeks.
You can argue what you want, she is crazy!

2/3 of France is going to vote for Macron, and it doesn't matter that he is a former employee at the Rotshild Bank (Big name but the bank is in fact pretty small) or that he is hated for his liberal views, or that his whife is 24 years his senior, or that he is friend with the high finance world, or that you hate him for whatever reason, you vote for him, because you want Le Pen not to be president.
This is what the election are about now: Bare Le Pen from power. It's an emergency. Any blank voter would be considered a traitor to the nation.

There is one concensus: You don't want Marine Le Pen as president, period, no discussion.

And if she wins, I promise you that impeachement procedure to start quickely because nobody will let her rule.

Everybody is likening Le Pen with Trump. This is a big mistake.
Trump didn't have a program specificaly designed to ruin the economy of the country. Le Pen has.
Trump is a pragmatic (able to change view according to the situation, during briefing when he learns a feww things for the first time) while Le Pen is emotional, irrational, understand crazy.
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#52
(05-02-2017, 09:35 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: Jack and John, you are talking BS.
Heavily armed personel are only in very busy downtown centers, airports, central train stations and in front of parliament. (Downing Street is where the prime minister's office is. You would expect some higher protection overthere.)
If you walk there as a tourist, you'll seen them. Not if you come visit my parents in the outskirt.
........................
But it's not our daily life. Outside the famous location you won't see any.



Fred you are kind of illustrating my point.  I believe you and really doubt that there are lurking terrorists or armed troops anywhere near your parents home.  I saw few if any armed military outside the airport when we were in Amsterdam.  I did not see them in the English countryside either ... mainly lots of sheep.

But seeing soldiers with machine guns at European downtown centers, airports, train stations and in front of government buildings does not seem 'normal' when you are not used to seeing them at American downtown centers, airports, train stations and in front of government buildings.  To someone who has not become 'acclimated' ... it seems very abnormal.  You are apparently completely used to this ... we are not ... that was the point.  It's rather ironic as our politicians like to remind us that we are in a "state of war" and yet we really don't see it here ... we're reminded of it at airports when we see troops returning from overseas in BDUs ... but they aren't carrying weapons.

Fred ... perhaps you've heard people using the derisive term "snow flake" as a political dig at people who demand "safe zones".  The context is mostly about free speech ... but I can nearly guarantee you that if armed patrols like the sort you routinely see at European airports began appearing there would be a huge outcry and protests.  People would demand "safe zones" ... not places where potential jihadis would be confronted with quick decisive firepower (like your airports) ... but places where people wouldn't encounter it ... or have to see it or even consider the notion that they are at potential risk from suicidal killers.  They simply would not tolerate it.  They  would demand to be vulnerable to ensure they felt 'safe'.  I would guess that there are heavily armed response teams at all or our major airports ... but they are kept out of sight so as not to offend the easily offended.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#53
Yak, for us too, it's not "normal" to see heavily armed troops. We are not acclimated to it. But it's more a curiosity than a problem. We are not questioning their presence or feel unconfortable. But it catches our attention. We think something happens here, or "they" have heard about an imminent attack...
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#54
(05-03-2017, 10:53 AM)Fredledingue Wrote: Yak, for us too, it's not "normal" to see heavily armed troops. We are not acclimated to it. But it's more a curiosity than a problem. We are not questioning their presence or feel unconfortable. But it catches our attention. We think something happens here, or "they" have heard about an imminent attack...

I suspect you are going to see a whole lot more of it Fred, before this is all over.  You might even have to endure martial law, if Islam is ever going to be defeated this round.  I'm sorry to say it, but we too may well have to take drastic steps like this.  We just cannot allow Islam to prevail, or civilization as we know it, will be over.  S4
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#55
Huh-Oh, say it isn't so Joe.

BREAKING: MACRON BUSTED! Lied About Tax Evasion? – 4Chan /pol/ Posts Images from Macron’s Off-Shore Bank Account!

How many days left until the election? Shock
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#56
"They" do know of attacks, the US State dept just told Americans not to travel to the entire continent right now. I think we've picked up some co-ordinated attack plans and the states in Europe will know of it as well.

Concerning LePen and the guy's here, they don't see nuances like you do Fred. They see a leader breaking up the EU. These guys want that due to ideological thinking, they are not concerned she could be a disaster for the entire state or continent.

Same mentality elected Trump here. No thought beyond "he is the anti zeitgeist" leader.

Turns out he isn't, he has already folded on 80% of all the crap he was preaching. So will LePen. These nations are run behind the scenes Fred, pols are front men for money and they are going to do what they're told one way or the other. If either really did what they ran on, they'd be removed from office either through a process of smear campaigns or murder.
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#57
(05-05-2017, 10:20 AM)Palladin Wrote: ...he has already folded on 80% of all the crap he was preaching.

Actually, he hasn't folded on 80% of anything. Have you ever been involved in a negotiation? Right now, Ryan is trying to instill a "Ryan version of how the world should work" instead of supporting the issues that Trump was elected to secure. Getting done what he can while working around Ryan is not an instant thing. I don't know how long it will take.
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#58
And now Micron's emails are hacked ... I wonder if he's sue Le Pen over that as well? What are the odds that he has his own French versions of Donna Brazille and DW Shultz? He's still going to be elected ... but I'd expect that it's going to be an unpleasant and extremely rocky road.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#59
Yea he has William. The top 10 issues he's folded on 8 of them. I won't waste my time delineating the massive changes.

Even Breitbart, who carried water for Trump, had a reporter get into it with Spicer yesterday, they feel betrayed.

It's like I said, he's going to do what he's told like the rest of them, they're all front men to keep people like us thinking our voting means something so we won't take up arms and have a revolt.

On the basics, nothing changes and you can see it in the "Russia is a bogeyman" view whereas Trump campaigned on a common sense idea, Russia and the US have no natural cause to be at odds anymore than we do with Germany or Burma. Only, they're already back to bogeyman #1 under Trump.
Cause that's what the unelected state wants and they get what they want.
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#60
Paul Joseph Watson is not a Macron fan, to say the least. Something tells me that we are watching the next Barack Hussein Obama figure emerging. And guess who is pushing for him hardest? Spiteful

The Truth About Macron


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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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