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Turkey's Move to Islamic Autocracy
Let's see... the antithesis would be to not fight back if we were attacked until we could get a vote passed through Congress? The POTUS can engage in quick reaction because he is elected and directly answerable to the people. Even then, such events need petitioning Congress to pay for it.

We are not Turkey.
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(04-26-2017, 05:33 PM)Palladin Wrote: It is a sad day in Turkey, but, in a sense the Americans are down this path in war making. Our POTUS can make war on who he wants to a large extent and that's pretty bad as well, IMO.

Let's be a little more specific on this.  If you remember, the War Powers Act(Resolution) was passed in congress to prevent another Vietnam from ever happening again.  Clearly, Kennedy and Johnson were in the process of working their way into an armed conflict.  And the Tonkin Gulf attack was pretty much a blown up excuse to paint North Vietnam as the major aggressor there, giving Johnson a chance to commit ground troops in a direct fight instead of training and assistance.  That is what the act addressed.  

However, I went back and looked at the conditions that would allow the president to respond with force, and how long he could do so without obtaining the approval from both houses.

Quote:The War Powers Resolution requires the President to notify Congress within 48 hours of committing armed forces to military action and forbids armed forces from remaining for more than 60 days, with a further 30-day withdrawal period, without a Congressional authorization for use of military force (AUMF) or a declaration of war by the United States. The resolution was passed by two-thirds of Congress, overriding a presidential veto.

But clearly there are ways of fudging on this resolution.  Clinton did this by using NATO to justify the Kosovo bombing campaign.  But his actions were clearly unconstitutional.  And naturally a congress with both houses led by the courageous Dumbasses, let him get away with it.  Shock

But the easiest thing to so is to station naval forces around the potential target country and be provocative.  We are able to do this because of our aircraft carrier groups, and this acts as a real threat, just as we are about to do with N.Korea.  And if the object of this action gets spooked and attacks the provocateur, then this is justification for retaliation, in as much of a way as is allowed by congress.  This way, the provocateur is Always legally innocent, because he did not commit the 'Battery', even though the other side viewed the actions as a clear case of legalized Assault.  

This is akin to living in a neighborhood, and having a group of armed people from across town, walking/driving up and down your street on a continuous basis.  And perhaps one or two unfriendly neighbors also allowing them to use their yards as well.  While N.Korea may not be a particularly nice resident, the analogy is still accurate before international law.  

But here's where N.Korea is almost certainly unaware of our legal system.  As long as NK does not attack anything outside their borders, there is nothing Trump can do, other than Tweet messages and posture in front of the TV.  He is legally bound not to commit the first action.  They can just not pay attention to the US Navy, and nothing will ever come of it.  But not knowing our laws will leave them feeling vulnerable, and they will probably use military force to rid the threat.  And then the first act of the Big Dance will be on.  Gah
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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(04-26-2017, 06:10 PM)WmLambert Wrote: Let's see... the antithesis would be to not fight back if we were attacked until we could get a vote passed through Congress? The POTUS can engage in quick reaction because he is elected and directly answerable to the people. Even then, such events need petitioning Congress to pay for it.

We are not Turkey.

In my opinion the key is to station the ships in a less provocative location than just right outside N.Korea's territory limit.  If they don't then they are trying to rub dung in their faces, and it could lead to an attack.  If they were to station between Pusan and Ulsan to the south, or somewhere in Japanese waters, they are not getting in the crazy nut's faces.  That's what I would recommend,.....unless we feel the need to grab our dicks, and pound them on the table, as John Ringo likes to say. Spiteful
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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John, I think the whole idea IS to get in Kim Jung Un's face. He is the bully in the sandbox with all the little kids, but the teachers can't react until he starts throwing sand.
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(04-27-2017, 12:08 PM)WmLambert Wrote: John, I think the whole idea IS to get in Kim Jung Un's face. He is the bully in the sandbox with all the little kids, but the teachers can't react until he starts throwing sand.

Since when are we appointed as the "Teachers" of the world's problems?  And if so, why do we need to stick out our chins and say "You want a piece of me, huh, huh?"  What happened to the 'Walking softly' while carrying that 'stick'?  And especially with some totally unpredictable Wacko.  

Look, everyone knows that we will defend the ROKs and others such as Japan.  The Whack Job knows this already, so why do we have to get in his face about it?   If this is what passes for brilliance, I would hate to see what stupid really looks like.  Shock
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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It's a toss-up. He may continue beating his chest and talking nonsense - or he may do something really crazy - like sending a missile into Seoul or Japan. Either we allow him to reach a position where he can truly blackmail the world - or catch him out before he is quite ready. Either way - we are not dealing with a rational ruler, or someone who will not leave us in peace. ...Neville Chamberlain comes to mind.

I always think it is good to learn from history - not to repeat it. In the French-Indian Wars, there were many victims of outrages who thought they had no part in the antagonisms between armies, but who ended up butchered anyway. It is always the innocents who are held hostage. Since we are the single world superpower, all hostages are held out at us. Either we ignore them or protect them, but either way, the other side has a propaganda point. Our decision is what will do the most good and the least harm.

The blackmailing side takes into consideration whether we think we can afford the costs.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nor...9e12495e68
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Look Bill, this nut is just one more Caligula type.  He's nuts and totally undependable.  And as long as he can posture, beat his chest, he's happy.  There is literally NO ONE with whom he can blackmail.  The ROKs will not falter, and neither will the Japanese.  There is absolutely no one to physically attack other than those two, or the US if we stick out necks out and dare them.  

Let him scream and carry on.  The more he does this, the more he isolates himself and the rest of the planet will not hesitate to fall in line IF he does strike out at someone.  But sticking one's neck in the meat grinder is counter-productive strategically.  All of you Hawks need to stop and reconsider all this "I dare you!" mentality.

There is no need to wave that stick in anyone's face.  Everyone already knows we posses the capability.  Just because you have a huge Johnson, doesn't mean you are going to unzip your fly and swing it around.  Are you?  Let's get serious.

Its Iran, and Islam, that we should be more concerned about.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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Trump is just waving a red flag in front of Kim's face, that's all he's doing. IF Kim were to react and deliver A bombs to Tokyo and Seoul, Trump doesn't lose a moments sleep over it.

If Kim succeeds in killing 5K US soldiers with his artillery near the DMZ, Trump and his family are perfectly safe.

He would not lose a night's sleep over it. He's no more engaged with normal humanity than Nebuchadnezzar or King Ahab was.

Besides, Kim is China, SK and Japan's problem, if anyone of them feels the need to do something, it is their call, not this blowhard from Queens.
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Really? I thought the Norks were already supplying missiles to Terrorists. Maybe we should allow them to send radioactive material - or even nukes to whoever pays them enough? They do have submarines that can transport such stuff without trace.

Did you miss this video that he put out, that I just posted?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/nor...9e12495e68

It is just chest-thumping now, but I don't appreciate the message.
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NK leaders have been doing that at least in my adult lifetime. Here's the thing, their missile technology cannot be tolerated once it can reach the USA. So, if they continue testing, we have to act.

Knowing that, running around like a childish fucking baby like Donald Trump acts like and changes his mind weekly ranting and raving is let's say, "not helpful" because the stupidass has alerted Kim we have to act. Very ignorant leadership of the stronger power.

He should have ignored NK entirely and sat down with all parties and allowed how we have to move and do it w/o the nut in NK knowing it. Now, he has his military prepared to inundate Seoul with artillery at the drop of a hat thanks to your hero, Donald Trump.

Which means acting just became nearly impossible. As usual with our loud mouthed, thoughtless POTUS, he is going to achieve the exact opposite of his goals which means you wish he was a hard core communist/Islamist combo and we'd be fine.
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Not so. Trump has tendered a negotiation request to Kim. Sure Kim may be crazy - but it may be interesting to see how he may be enticed to behave himself.

One of my favorite SF short stories is about a world leader who puts his hand in his pocket and finds a note that could not possibly be there that explains he is not so insulated and safe as he believes. Wake up rtime.
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Reminds me of the Biblical story of David, fleeing from mad king Saul. By chance David manages to come across Saul asleep in a cave, and rather than kill him, David cuts off the hem of Saul's garment. Later he shows Saul the scrap of cloth from a distance, and Saul is shamed into relenting on his murderous intent--at least for awhile.
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David didn't hurt Saul because he knew God had appointed Saul to that position. Otherwise, he'd have stabbed him.
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Interesting development in Syria. Odd bedfellows. Notice the propaganda headline Fox uses, which is entirely not accurate. They learned well from their masters in the federal government pr department:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/05/06/...zones.html
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What are you talking about? The headline "US dismisses Russia’s ban on military aircraft over Syria safe zones" is quite accurate and speaks to the fact that the safe zones only limit the US-led alliance. The sides pushing it are Russia, Turkey, and Iran. Read your own link.
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I did. It says the US won't let anyone slow down their anti ISIS campaign, which has nothing to do with these no fly/safe zones.

That's why I pointed out how stupid the headliner was. We had a representative at the talks.

We're working with the Russians on this, I guess that hurts your American pride, but, it's a good idea.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/05/06/...rpart.html
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The point is that the United States was NOT involved in the Russian/Iranian/Syrian Government (Assad) agreement about the safe zones. We agreed to nothing. They are merely one side in the conflict. For them to demand that the US go along with this is absurd.
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Ron,

Maybe read the article above which makes your "point" wrong. I posted it for a reason.

It says we're co-operating.

Try reading and researching before popping off with your arrogant, egotistical, typical American centric desire to kill people all the damn time just because our stupid, corrupt, damned government tells us to.
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Erdogan shows his true colors in Washington. Video Emerges Of Turkey’s President Watching As His Goons Attack Protesters

Quote:The video is filmed from behind a black Mercedes Benz occupied by Erdogan, who had just left a White House meeting with President Trump.
Kurdish protesters can be heard chanting in the video. One of Erdogan’s personal bodyguards is also seen bending down into the Mercedes, which is surrounded by around 10 suited men.

The video then shows Erdogan’s bodyguard standing up outside of the vehicle before appearing to relay commands to another man closer to the protests unfolding on the street outside the embassy. The man then turns and appears to rush off towards the protests. Seconds later, men in suits working in some capacity for the Turkish government go after the protesters.

Given Erdogan’s iron-like grip on his government, it is unlikely that his security detail would have acted without direct orders.

The VOA footage zooms in as Erdogan’s security detail is seen punching and kicking the protesters. The melee dissipated in less than a minute, and Erdogan is seen emerging from the Mercedes Benz. He then enters the ambassador’s residence flanked by several Turkish government ministers, including Berat Albayrak, Turkey’s energy minister and Erdogan’s son-in-law.

Erdogan orders the attack on protesters from his car


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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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