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Nigel Farage, UKIP and EU Membership
(01-18-2021, 04:42 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: John, you haven't been in Europe since the mid 60's and you want to tell me how it looks like living here in 2021?

True, I haven't lived there since then. However, due to the the IT Revolution, I can follow what is happening, quite closely. Furthermore, people do not change their thinking quickly, so I can apply the 60s Euro to today's situation more easily than most.

(01-18-2021, 04:42 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: Of course we are bureaucratic. Sometimes it's crazy. BUT it depends where and for what. In some EU country the same thing can be incredibly easy or incredibly burdensome. Each country has its bureaucratic speciality.

No, you(2nd person plural) are fanatically bureaucratic. I've never seen anything like it in my life. There are rules for Everything. You all probably have a law which tells you how to change hands when taking a leak on the side of the road, so as to welcome strangers. I've actually seen that happen on the side of the road more than once.

There are rules/laws for Everything possible. Europeans are the most bureaucratically trained of anyone I have ever encountered, and I've been, And Lived, in many parts of the world. I've never seen anything like it, believe me.

(01-18-2021, 04:42 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: Tell me about your bureaucratic experience. IMO it's better to share our crazy stories than starting a internet war about whose country is worse, Don't you think?
I'm sure you have great things to tell too...

I do not have the time to list those I can remember. They are countless and I constantly shake my head when I think back. The number I have forgotten, due to my age, are beyond count. I've never seen a society in which there are rules for EVERYTHING imagionable.

Also, in the US one is presumed innocent and must be proven guilty in a court of law. In Euroland one must prove one's innocence, which is diabolically opposed to the US Constitution. This is one thing that military personnel, being assigned to Europe, were told that they must remember. One is NOT innocent until proven guilty. "Its the other way around, so you'd better be good"
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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I remember Europe in the 1960s, it wasn't unusual for tenants in an apartment building to share an unheated toilet; hot water was a luxury as was space, most apartment had at most three rooms. Tenants took a birdbath in the kitchen.
The true purpose of democracy is not to select the best leaders — a clearly debatable obligation — but to facilitate the prompt and peaceful removal of obviously bad ones. 
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(01-18-2021, 05:49 PM)Canuknucklehead Wrote: I remember Europe in the 1960s, it wasn't unusual for tenants in an apartment building to share an unheated toilet; hot water was a luxury as was space, most apartment had at most three rooms. Tenants took a birdbath in the kitchen.

I don't know how many time I have heard that experience.  Fortunately, I lived in a US Army set of quarters, and not on the "Economy".  For some reason, my Dad had early access to a set of quarters in Baumholder, because he was the hospital SGTMaj at Birkenfeld 98th General.  I lived right here at Balmholder Kesern.  It was on a beautiful hill, overlooking the train station of Balmholder.  My Mom worked at the in-quarters section and got off at 5PM.  Dad and I used to watch her 1957 Chevy BelAir as it left the train section intersection, and raced up the hill to our quarters.  She was a speed demon and drove that 283cc Chevy like it was on the race track.  My Mom always drove like a maniac, and back then, in the mid-60s, the 283cc 4-barrel was a powerhouse.  S13
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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JohnL Wrote:There are rules/laws for Everything possible. Europeans are the most bureaucratically trained of anyone I have ever encountered, and I've been, And Lived, in many parts of the world. I've never seen anything like it, believe me.

It's true. But it's also because you have been in under developed countries with very little bureaucracy like post war east asia or somewhere else where the governement was either absent or embryonic. Then you compared with Europe and its 200 years of red tape tradition.

I know that bureaucracy is huge. And we DO complain about it every day. Don;t think that we like it or that we got used to it, But as I explained above, it's not for everything. It's for specific things and not for others. And it changes from one country to another. So it's difficult to make an assessment for the whole Europe.
Saying that it's unviable is also not true. I'm sure that in US, you also need to fill in documents sometimes.

JohnL Wrote:Also, in the US one is presumed innocent and must be proven guilty in a court of law. In Euroland one must prove one's innocence,
Not exactly. If the accuser has no evidence, the defendant can prove its innocence very easily.
Justice is one thing that I would trust much more in Europe than in the US. For the same reason: Criminals are presumed innocent. Even worse: They can be released on bail. Something unthinkable in Europe.

Canuknucklehead Wrote:I remember Europe in the 1960s, it wasn't unusual for tenants in an apartment building to share an unheated toilet; hot water was a luxury as was space, most apartment had at most three rooms. Tenants took a birdbath in the kitchen.
Yes. Even thought we called it the Golden 60's, there was still a lot of poverty in the 60's. And not only in the south, but in north-west too, supposedly richer. Yet much less than in the 30's ans much less already than right after the War, between 1945 and 1955 when life was very difficult.
It started to improve quickely from the 70's.
Today nobody is living like that anymore, except illegals or alcoholics or people like that. Nobody would build a home without a decent bathroom and a modern kitchen today.
Sometimes we forget how poor Europe was in the past.
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On my last evening of a port visit to Plymouth, England, in the mid-1960s I had a pocket full of British coins that made no sense to me so I gave it to a kid that was about ten years. At that time the ordinary Brit was earning about $30 per week; I have no idea how much I gave him, but it probably exceeded ten dollars. I often wonder how he spent it or was he accused of stealing the money. The reason I gave it to him was that only paper money is exchangeable.
The true purpose of democracy is not to select the best leaders — a clearly debatable obligation — but to facilitate the prompt and peaceful removal of obviously bad ones. 
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(01-19-2021, 01:22 PM)Canuknucklehead Wrote: On my last evening of a port visit to Plymouth, England, in the mid-1960s I had a pocket full of British coins that made no sense to me so I gave it to a kid that was about ten years. At that time the ordinary Brit was earning about $30 per week; I have no idea how much I gave him, but it probably exceeded ten dollars. I often wonder how he spent it or was he accused of stealing the money. The reason I gave it to him was that only paper money is exchangeable.

You must have been a pretty young swabby yourself, back then. S5
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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(01-19-2021, 10:06 PM)John L Wrote:
(01-19-2021, 01:22 PM)Canuknucklehead Wrote: On my last evening of a port visit to Plymouth, England, in the mid-1960s I had a pocket full of British coins that made no sense to me so I gave it to a kid that was about ten years. At that time the ordinary Brit was earning about $30 per week; I have no idea how much I gave him, but it probably exceeded ten dollars. I often wonder how he spent it or was he accused of stealing the money. The reason I gave it to him was that only paper money is exchangeable.

You must have been a pretty young swabby yourself, back then.  S5

Twenty years old and easily tricked.
The true purpose of democracy is not to select the best leaders — a clearly debatable obligation — but to facilitate the prompt and peaceful removal of obviously bad ones. 
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