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Mass Drowning of Migrants in the Mediterranean
#1
The problem is so serious that they contemplate the use of special forces to target human trafficking networks and even destroy ships docked in Lybia.

The link doesn't talk about this. But a french language report does (please translate).

Poeple pay between 1.500 and 2.000 dollars to travel from Africa to northern Europe. But when the boat arrive in the middle of the sea, the crew leave the ship, send an SOS and let the sea patrols or commercial ships the work to rescue the passengers.
Then the passengers are brought in closed centers where they are taking care of, and then, their escape is organized and then they are carried by bus or by private cars to their final location.
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#2
(04-20-2015, 07:52 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: The link doesn't talk about this. But a french language report does (please translate).

Here you go Fred: Shipwreck of migrants Khattabi denounced the "hypocrisy" of the speech of Charles Michel
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#3
Why Socialist always rhymes with irresponsible?

Reuters Wrote:Shortly after taking power in January, Greece’s new government opened the gates of one of the main detention centers where thousands of undocumented migrants had been held against their will after arriving on the country’s Mediterranean shores.

Many of the inmates, including refugees and children, were driven to Athens and released, in what Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras's leftist government hailed as the beginning of the end of inhumane migrant policies of the past.

Now the move has created other problems. With the influx of migrants from Africa and the Middle East rising this year, hundreds have ended up like 40-year-old Syrian Dia Qasem and her three sons: stuck in the Greek capital’s public squares with nowhere to sleep and little eat.
...
Greek reaction to foreigners pouring into city centers, lining up at food banks and shelters already crowded with impoverished Greeks, is turning hostile.
Must Read

This is incredibly stupid.

But this story and this one (Murder and abuse before deadly migrant crossing) illustrate how Europe is facing two waves of immigration:
- One manily form Africa, almost exclusively young men moving for economic reasons. This one always existed but increased in recent years because of greater chaos and higher demographic pressure.

- A second one from Syria. New. War refugees. Greece is very close geographicaly to Syria.

And the EU has no plan beyong detention centers and hope that those who stay will naturaly assimilate...
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#4
Fred, I can give you another reason why the EU is going to fail and fall apart. Anyone who makes it to an EU member can travel to any other EU member country without any hindrance. Once outsiders get there, they are home free, and can wind up anywhere within the EU and it is now legal. This is going to be one of the causes for the EU's undoing.

National sovereignty is meaningless now, and the citizenry is going to demand their national rights be returned to them. You wait and see. S5
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#5
John,

I agree individual states will desire to keep out some immigrants, except borders are not controllable. France can't do much to stop migrations from say Italy or Greece as an origin point.

You can't patrol our borders properly if you used every soldier we currently employ. Maybe with 5 million soldiers you could cover both borders.
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#6
It really tended to work quite well under the old European Common Market setup before this EU. borders were sovereign and people were required to show proper identification when moving from one country to another. It worked, and worked well, because there was a legal framework in place with all of Western Europe. I experienced it first hand in the mid 60s. Yet there was easy trade between countries.

This "One size fits all" way of doing things today is a pain in the ass and this illegal immigration thing is going to be just one of the reasons for its failure. The Greece fiasco, is another. Germans overwhelmingly want to return to the Deutche Mark, as well as the Dutch to their Guilder. And no amount of bureaucratic coercion is going to change this. In fact, both countries have already set up a disaster plan, for just such a failure.

The immigration situation in the EU and the US are two different creatures here. The US is going through this due to the McDaddy's arrogant attempt to fundamentally transform this country* as he thinks it should be. There are legal mechanisms to solve the problem, which are already in place. With the EU, the very nature of the system makes it virtually impossible to police their illegal immigration problem. They are legally hamstrung. And that is just one of the many, many, reasons why it is doomed to failure.

And here's an interesting question: Is Norway, as well as the Suisse, having an illegal immigration problem? Remember, these two countries are Not members of the EU. And the another question: Are they beating down the doors in order to get in?



* - Illegal immigration. Before Obama, the debate over illegal immigration was mostly an argument between two schools that transcended politics and ideology: literalists who believed the law had to be enforced to its full extent, postfacto as well as preventatively, and realists who agreed in theory but felt that many of the 11 million who resided illegally in the U.S. could be given a pathway to citizenship, so long as they have no criminal record, have avoided public assistance, and could claim long residence — contingent on closing the border.

Not now. Under Obama, illegal immigration has become a political if not a racially charged issue. Supporters of blanket amnesty saw an evolving demographic process of fundamentally transforming the electorate of the American Southwest, resonating with Obama’s own unfortunate lead, as in his advice to Latinos to “punish our enemies.” Perhaps this vision was best summarized by ACORN’s former CEO, Bertha Lewis. She recently urged African-Americans to support increased immigration on the following rationale: “We got some Latino cousins, we got some Asian cousins, we got some Native-American cousins, we got all kind of cousins. . . . Cousins need to get together, because if we’re going to be [part of the non-white] majority, it makes sense for black people in this country to get down with immigration reform. . . . Everyone, even all white folks in this country, acknowledge that in a minute, [the] United States of America will be a new majority, will be majority minority, a brand-new thing. . . . For the first time ever in history, African-Americans outvoted white Americans. Pooh. That’s the fear of the white man. That could change everything. That’s why [immigration] should matter to us.”
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#7
John, in Europe nobody younger than 30 years old has known borders between EU countries. And myself, the vision of inactive custom officers nodding from afar as we drive slowly through the border crossing without stoping is a vague souvenir of my childhood.

Migrants could move easily from one country to another, with almost zero chance of beeing caught, for 30 years at least.
Re-closing the borders is not even imaginable today. Forget about it. Nobody is going to ask it.

The problem is not that we are not segmented. The problem of immigration is demographic. There are way too many poeple in North-Central Africa (note that migrants don't come much from North Africa anymore) and the Middle East.

The problem is with our southern border and we are much more effective in dealing with it together than by letting Italy, Greece and Spain do it alone individualy.
And because everybody is concerned, Italy, Greece and Spain get much more support form other countries for watching the Med, and we have a coherent policy in place.

For example, before the EU if an african was caught in France, crossing from Italy, by law he was sent back to Italy.
Today we send him back to Africa.

And yes, Norway and Switzerland do have immigration problems. Norway less so thanks to their extremely remote location but they start to feel it.
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#8
John,

What I was alluding to was when desperate people want in like we have with south Americans and Fred with Africans, it's exceptionally hard to stop.
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#9
(04-25-2015, 03:56 PM)Palladin Wrote: John,

What I was alluding to was when desperate people want in like we have with south Americans and Fred with Africans, it's exceptionally hard to stop.

I understand that. But enforcing the law and sending them home is a part of law enforcement, i.e. the rule of law. That's why I set Norway apart from the rest of the EU. They have an active role in deporting illegal aliens. And they are able to do this, along with the Suisse, because they are not bound by the EU laws.

I believe in immigration, because it brings in new blood, and keeps us from becoming a stagnant growth country, as is Japan, and other Western countries. But it has to be done legally, so as to assimilate them with ease, and also reward the ones who go about this legally. McDaddy is absolutely shamless IMO. And the establishment Dumbasses are little better.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#10
(04-25-2015, 03:56 PM)Palladin Wrote: What I was alluding to was when desperate people want in like we have with south Americans and Fred with Africans, it's exceptionally hard to stop.

In the U.S. it would basically require enforcing our own laws ... why does that seem so "exceptionally hard"? Nobody that's ever seen the desolate areas that comprise most of our border with Mexico would believe we could be 100% effective in stopping every individual desperate enough to cross, but there's a difference between that and completely abandoning interdiction all together. China is very effective about keeping desperate North Koreans out ... even if a few (emphasis on few) still manage to cross a border that is long and desolate as well. There is a vast difference between 'actively' securing a national border and actively encouraging people to breech it ... and then feigning shock when they actually do in droves. Our idiotic border policies are tolerated in part because when horrible human atrocities occur, they generally involve only the immigrants themselves ... or maybe a dead rancher or two. I suspect that if a DUI suspect released and "allowed to go on their way" by border patrol managed to take out a busload of school kids ... or some large scale terrorist bombing was traced back to Juarez, that the political sands ... and policies built upon them might be shifted very rapidly. It's amazing how quickly the 'hard' can become so much easier when the will is suddenly found to make it so. And isn't it a tragedy that this will likely require a tragedy?

fred Wrote:Poeple pay between 1.500 and 2.000 dollars to travel from Africa to northern Europe. But when the boat arrive in the middle of the sea, the crew leave the ship, send an SOS ...

In the 'land' version of this along the border with Mexico, in addition to paying the fee, the 'clients' are often forced to be narcotics mules. If the smugglers ("coyotes") think the group is slowing them down too much or if they become to feeble under their loads or it's suspected they are close to being caught, they will abandoned people in 110°F+ heat with no water in the middle of a 'sea' of dirt, cactus and creosote. Their corpses are found by the 100s every year from California to Texas ... and probably many, many more that simply turn to dust ... or get covered by it. Can you possibly imagine saying good bye to your child ... sending them off on a death train, sending them into that abyss ... and then hoping that you'll hear from them again some day? And can you imagine that the Obama Administration is actually encouraging that callous inhuman practice??

[Image: IllegalImmigrantsDeathTrain.jpg]
[Image: Victims%2Bfrom%2BHonduras-710921.jpg]
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#11
(04-25-2015, 05:10 PM)mr_yak Wrote: Can you possibly imagine saying good bye to your child ... putting them on a death train, sending them into that abyss ... and then hoping that you'll hear from them again some day? And can you imagine that the Obama Administration is actually encouraging that callous inhuman practice??

I can only hope and pray that he "Gets His" after he leaves office. But not before, because he will become an instant martyr, which is the last thing he deserves. His Collectivist agenda is all that really matters to him, and his ilk. Gah
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#12
(04-25-2015, 06:04 PM)John L Wrote: I can only hope and pray that he "Gets His" after he leaves office. But not before, because he will become an instant martyr, which is the last thing he deserves. His Collectivist agenda is all that really matters to him, and his ilk. Gah

The consequences of his policies are being described as a genocide. What are the odds that he is brought to the Hague? He is an 'Internationalist' after all ... right? S24

Quote:Every year, an estimated 140,000 undocumented immigrants travel through Mexico on their way to the U.S. border. In the last 6 years, at least 70,000 immigrants have disappeared or reported missing in Mexico and only 80 have been located alive.

Fred,
While piles of a few dozen bodies are occasionally found in the desert and briefly make it into our news cycle (although it's usually confined to the Southwest), the full extent of the carnage generally goes unreported. I'm wondering if there have been any estimates of the overall immigrant body count in the Mediterranean? I suspect that it has to get pretty high to compare with the numbers above ... and those numbers only reflect those 'reported' missing ... and don't really account for the robberies, sexual assaults, sex trafficking, torture, extortion and other abuse that's inflicted during the "land migration" ... vs your sea migration. The Christians that were killed and pitched overboard recently are the only outright murders that's I've heard about. Does the other stuff get reported much in Europe?
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#13
Yak,

Enforcing the law is easy if you can find the perps crossing the borders. I don't think we do enough even under other leaders, although I realize Obama is avoiding doing his job on purpose.

What if Reagan was in office, what would happen to the typical illegal alien? X % make it through, Y % get caught and deported and X% of Y try again the next day.

Bush wasn't right on much, but, he was on this one. As long as we create jobs and they create babies, they will come here. I have yet to read of any major human migration that was successfully stopped, have you?
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#14
(04-25-2015, 07:34 PM)Palladin Wrote: Yak,

Enforcing the law is easy if you can find the perps crossing the borders. I don't think we do enough even under other leaders, although I realize Obama is avoiding doing his job on purpose.

What if Reagan was in office, what would happen to the typical illegal alien? X % make it through, Y % get caught and deported and X% of Y try again the next day.

Bush wasn't right on much, but, he was on this one. As long as we create jobs and they create babies, they will come here. I have yet to read of any major human migration that was successfully stopped, have you?

Palladin,

Enforcing the law is easy if you simply make a good faith effort to enforce the law. We're ignoring it at the border, we're ignoring it at the municipal level, we're ignoring it at the state level and we're ignoring it at the federal level. And when an agency or state chooses NOT to ignore the law they get sued by the 'Justice' Department. Reagan did not flout the law. He offered amnesty (backed up by legislation) that was supposed to be barter for border security. The border security part of the 'deal' never really occurred (hey, the guy could only accomplish a limited amount in 8 years). "Human migration" was effectively stopped along the iron curtain for decades ... at the point of the bayonet ... to the point that even the deer will not cross boundaries that don't exist anymore. There are millions of starving North Koreans that would love to migrate to China ... where people aren't starving nearly as much ... but they know they would be killed outright or returned to North Korea ... where they would be tortured ... and then killed outright. I'm not advocating that. I'm saying that by ignoring and flouting our own laws we are creating the exact same corrupt morass that these people are so desperately fleeing. Our current policies are a bunch of corrupt, schizophrenic lies ... and they are encouraging people to run a gauntlet of death with an advertized 90% survival rate ... but probably an actual one closer to 80% ... but probably much less ... and likely 0% get through without experiencing some sort of assorted horror. Seriously, there are some cancers with better odds than "La Bestia". We might not be able to 'stop' it, but we can do infinitely better in controlling it ... and the first thing we need to do is be honest and true to ourselves by following our own laws ... or changing them appropriately. If not, eventually, we'll be just as bad or worse as any South or Central American shithole. And then what? ... Canada? WarBicycle ... be afraid ... be very afraid. Shock
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#15
Yak, I don;t know exactely how much cover this tragedy gets here in Europe because I don;t watch television at all or rarely, and read all the news on the internet, but it's clear that we are not informed of 90% of what happens.
I'm sure much more poeple are dying than the number advertised.

It's terrible to see that the phenomenon is similar in Europe and in the US. Both with part of the politic wolrd willing to let in any migrant in any number in any circumstance. I think they do this to get more popular mass to vote for the left.

This reuters' commentary blames everything on Climate Change. Crap! But they still mention at the end the real cause of all this: Uncontrolled demographic boom.
We wouldn't have so many climate disasters if there weren't poeple were they ocure in the first place!

Most of the immigrants come form countries with highest birth rates. As the birth rate of north african countries declines, less migrant come from them and more migrants come from further south.

Of course without Ghaddafy, and with the chaos brought by the Islamists, Lybia became the route of choice. But I doubt that Ghaddafy would have been enough to stop them. Like water the flood of migrants is always going by the easiest ways. If not through Lybia, it would have been through another place or through everywhere from the north african coast.

An aerial photo of Mexico City suffices to understand why poeple want to live this place. And here no buffer state.

But there is a big difference: Sea.

To reach Europe, you can go only through Russia or Ukraine or through the sea. Russia and Ukraine are very tough with their border. The Iron Curtain techniques are still there. 2 ou 3 persons could be smuggled through Russia and this happens. But no way groups of hundreds. Russia is so well guarded that Bengladeshis are going through Lybia to reahc Europe.

Ok. So why is the sea such a difference?

Because of the Laws of the Sea, every captain is obligated to rescue wrecked poeple in danger of drowning.
When migrants are stopped on firm land, they can be easily driven back to the fence. On the sea, the are rescued and that means already another statu. They are forcibly brought to the land where the rescuing ship is heading, and traffickers manage to abandon the ship where all other boats are moving in the right direction.

Once in Europe, the sea which made difficult to reach it makes it even more difficult to deport the illegals.
You can't put them in a bus. Usualy you need to put them in a plane and it's much more expensive.

I think we have spotted one of the main if not The main treath to our civilisation: Massive increase in populations where there is no resource for them to live.
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#16
(04-26-2015, 06:09 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: I think we have spotted one of the main if not The main treath to our civilisation: Massive increase in populations where there is no resource for them to live.

I'll disagree on this. There are resources, but they are squandered by corruption, inefficiency and religious and tribal warfare ... so people move on. I have no idea if Europe is adhering to it's own laws when it takes on refugees from the sea. But I'm damn sure we're disregarding our own laws when it comes from the tidal flood of immigrants from the South. That's the irony. Those unfortunate people are fleeing lawlessness. And we are responding to their arrival with a massive wave of cynical politically driven lawlessness. Our immigration policy warmly embraces corruption ... which means we are ultimately creating the same conditions that cause the immigrants to leave their own countries in the first place. We're importing malfeasance. It's not the immigrant's fault, it's our own. Our circumstances may be different, but the results are very similar ... particularly the mortality. At least Europe doesn't seem to be 'advertizing' to coerce people into taking deadly journeys like the U.S. is ... I swear, sometimes it seems as though we are some sort of sadistic travel agency. Go take another look at the horrors above. What sort of perverse bastard would encourage that?
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#17
Yak,

OK, explain which mass migration in just USA history was stopped by the USA in any of our history beginning with 1783 if it is doable?

Ben Franklin hated Germans and assumed they would end the experiment.

I have never read of a successful end to any mass human migration ever in the history of earth.
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#18
Yak, of course corruption and tribal wars are making it worse. but the dried parts of Africa and Mexico can't support a doubling of the population every 20 years.

In Brazil and Cebttral Africa, they are coping with this though massive destruction of rain forests, in the most wasteful way imaginable. But more in the north where there is no rain, they leave or starve.

Nothing is growing there, yet each woman has 5 or 6 children, starting from the age of 15. There are million of poeple living where rainfalls are among the lowest on Earth.

All this wouldn't happen, and didn't happen when their population was 1/5th of what it's today.

Palladin Wrote:I have never read of a successful end to any mass human migration ever in the history of earth.
Even the Chinese Wall has been climbed over by mongol migrants.
Yes, it's unstoppable because it's a question of survivql for these poeple.
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#19
(04-27-2015, 10:42 AM)Palladin Wrote: Yak,

OK, explain which mass migration in just USA history was stopped by the USA in any of our history beginning with 1783 if it is doable?

http://www.history.com/topics/chinese-exclusion-act

Doable? It would require our government to grow something resembling a spine ... which is theoretically possible. Another Great Depression event that created real, deep palpable poverty over a majority of the population might be enough to create enough animosity to overcome the Democrat's voter assimilation project our collective desire to be 'nice' and to lead to 'exclusion' policies.

Fred,

Mexico and South and Central America have tremendous resources rivaling if not greatly exceeding the United States ... but they are also so completely corrupt and inefficiency that haven't been able to develop them productively. If they had developed anything remotely resembling a fair playing field, we'd probably be jumping the fence in the opposite direction.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#20
(04-27-2015, 08:30 PM)mr_yak Wrote: Fred,

Mexico and South and Central America have tremendous resources rivaling if not greatly exceeding the United States ... but they are also so completely corrupt and inefficiency that haven't been able to develop them productively. If they had developed anything remotely resembling a fair playing field, we'd probably be jumping the fence in the opposite direction.

Is there anything that Spain touched that didn't turn to crap in the long run? I'm trying to think of just one Spanish colony that has actually "made it" out of the poverty-corruption cycle.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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