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Mass Drowning of Migrants in the Mediterranean
#21
(04-27-2015, 08:48 PM)John L Wrote: Is there anything that Spain touched that didn't turn to crap in the long run? I'm trying to think of just one Spanish colony that has actually "made it" out of the poverty-corruption cycle.

Hmmm ... I'm trying to put that in context with Mexico's 'liberation' from France that will be celebrated next week. S6
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#22
Fred,

Mexicans actually stopped having kids a little over 10 years ago. This discussion about them is a moot point.

We're going to be having an opposite problem in about 25 years, we will need immigrants and there won't be any over here.

So, we'll be importing from poor areas that do have kids from another continent.
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#23
John,

With a more serious consideration of your thesis, the Spanish model of conquest seems to have revolved much more around outright plunder than any sort of successful colonization. The fate of the Inca Emperor Atahualpa goes a very long way in explaining the 'ethics' of their approach.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#24
The Spanish did not bring their families, the English did. That probably says a lot right there as to how each side conducted business.

We did screw the natives and African slaves, but, we did it with the desire to build something and the Spanish wanted to exploit alone to take something back to Spain as a general rule, there were great exceptions to both cases.

This wonderful, gentle man is a great exception to Spanish SOP and the Pope strove to support him and stop the SOP Spaniard's "disgusting" in south America:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartolom%C3..._las_Casas
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#25
Haiti was a french colony and it's the worse former colony nation ever. The poverty-corruption cycle is not specific to Spanish culture or even latin culture. Former british, dutch and german colonies in Africa and Asia are also economic wrecks.
And all these nations have been colonies because they were very weak to start with.

Palladin Wrote:Mexicans actually stopped having kids a little over 10 years ago. This discussion about them is a moot point.
Here are two pictures of Mexico City:

[Image: article-0-1B6C28F5000005DC-874_634x623.jpg]
source
[Image: 18449d1199299476-megalopolis.jpg]

Sure! Everybody wants to live there.

..and this one is for John who likes architecture, especialy "tiny houses" with natural materials LOL:

[Image: 18438d1199299425-cornerhouse.jpg]

more here about this insanity
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#26
For Palladin S5 :
[Image: 10365787_10206206518739299_6988673651303...a0340c520d]
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#27
Fred,

I see this one on shirts at work:

http://www.tannerhiggin.com/wp-content/u...00x229.jpg

It's funny to me because it's a valid thought. All us white folks over here are dead set against illegal immigration and we never consider we didn't give a damn about legal anything and still don't, like the Mexicans, we just came over here and took over.
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#28
(04-28-2015, 05:06 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: Sure! Everybody wants to live there.

This is a model of the way 'environmentalists' want us to live. Less impact on mother earth. More efficient. I think in a few of those you got to see islands of "the elite". They get to live with room ... and trees. The rest of us are supposed get bent over across the concrete. I saw a great example of this in Juarez about a decade ago. It's a terrible place on par with any other third world disaster ... but right next to the U.S. border. You typically see miles of trashy desert ... interspersed with barrios made of cardboard and packing pallets and trash. Not as tightly packed as your photos, but that was a while ago ... and it's probably much worse now. On a trip back to our hotel, I saw a beautiful property ... several hundred acres ... clean, un-trashed desert ... and in the center of it, several building complexes ... tennis courts, several large swimming pools, a soccer field ... on the periphery, a motocross track, horses, riding trails ... etc. etc... I made the mistake of asking if it was a country club. My colleague that was driving us to the hotel laughed to the point of wetting himself ... "no ... that's were the drug dealer lives ... ". A few days later there was a Dodge Viper pulled over on the side of the road near it. I made some comment about it being stripped quickly ... again the humor ... "no .. that's the drug dealer's car ....". Corruption is what causes the vast shittiness in these places in the world. Those kids on the death train are desperately trying to outrun it ... and unfortunately they are carrying it on their backs ... just like the drug mules ... and it's weight capsizes boats in the Mediterranean as well.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#29
[Image: homeland-300x229.jpg]

Ahh, the Noble Savage syndrome. It just won't go away. Those poor, innocent, peace loving natives, who were steamrolled by the callous, capitalistic, hate filled greedy White Men.

But lets forget the fact that the American Indian came in and took over before the "disgusting" Europeans, and were conquering each other ever since. And they all lived a wonderously idealistic Communistic lifestyle, where nobody owned anything beyond what they carried. Perhaps this is why they took out their frustrations on their neighbors with such abandon.

And let's also forget just how ruthless and sadistic they were to their fellow neighbors, with whom they were constantly at war, and never seemed to end. Take the Souix as an example. When the French first contacted them, they were an agricultural set of tribes along the northern Mississippi River. But that changed once they were able to harvest the wild Spanish horses that were growing in number. This enabled them to move west and conquer other Indian's lands, performing the usual American Indian foreign policy, which was genocide of their neighbors. One of these victims was the Pawnee.

But they all did this to each other, so it is conveniently overlooked by idealists with selective ignorance. No one tribe was absolved of committing genocide upon everyone else. They even contributed to the "disgusting" White Man as well, as shown by this article, which critiques the Johnny Depp "Lone Ranger" movie.

Quote:The 16-year-old girl’s once-beautiful face was grotesque.
She had been disfigured beyond all recognition in the 18 months she had been held captive by the Comanche Indians.
Now, she was being offered back to the Texan authorities by Indian chiefs as part of a peace negotiation.
To gasps of horror from the watching crowds, the Indians presented her at the Council House in the ranching town of San Antonio in 1840, the year Queen Victoria married Prince Albert.
‘Her head, arms and face were full of bruises and sores,’ wrote one witness, Mary Maverick. ‘And her nose was actually burnt off to the bone. Both nostrils were wide open and denuded of flesh.’
Once handed over, Matilda Lockhart broke down as she described the horrors she had endured — the rape, the relentless sexual humiliation and the way Comanche women had tortured her with fire. It wasn’t just her nose, her thin body was hideously scarred all over with burns.
When she mentioned she thought there were 15 other white captives at the Indians’ camp, all of them being subjected to a similar fate, the Texan lawmakers and officials said they were detaining the Comanche chiefs while they rescued the others.
It was a decision that prompted one of the most brutal slaughters in the history of the Wild West — and showed just how bloodthirsty the Comanche could be in revenge.

We should all take a bit more time reading about the gentle nature of the American Indians. And we can all start with the article above as just a beginning. And there are many, many others, but here is a good overall depiction of how we tend to glamorize the Red Man, and gloss over the untold practices that are almost all heaped on the White Man.

Dances With Myths

But to end this eternal discussion, I remember my Ethnology professor at UT once describe how receptive some tribes were to receiving help from a few concerned lawyers, who wanted to represent them in the courts. Most of them were later discovered staked to the ground, and horribly disfigured. Actually, that's a great place for lawyers to repose in many cases. S5


Yeah, fighting terrorism since 1492. Actually it should read "Fighting and Using Terrorism since 12,500 BC". Or was it 15,200 BC, or perhaps ..............................
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#30
John,

That isn't why we posted these, I happen to agree with your assessments of "savages". Actually, I think all humanity is the same in that respect. One step away from mass murder at any time.

These were posted because we harp on illegal immigration and terrorism and if you were a native in 1600AD here(regardless of your morality) you yourself would say, "these terrorist white men are thieves and need to be stopped or they'll take over the whole damn place".

That's what that photo is about, not moral superiority.

I share the view of General Nelson Miles. We ethnic Euros, like the Indians before us, could kick ass and take names and we did. When others try it on us, let's not act like we're all victims here and we're innocents, we aren't:

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#31
JL Wrote:Ahh, the Noble Savage syndrome.
No, it's not about the noble savage. It's about the right of poeple to defend their land and repell newcomers if they don't want them.

I don't know why these indians martyred this poor girl. But barbary is often response to barbary. It doesn't need elaborating.

The immigration of europeans to the New World (or emigration from Europe) was also caused by a demographic boom and a misery not too diffenretn from that of the Third World today. But it was also accompanied with poeple with money wanting to do business and, the most important with new technologies and better organisation.

Today immigration is a problem because those who are coming are poor, illiterate and bring nothing new with them. Not even their own culture which they couldn't afford to keep.
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#32
(04-29-2015, 04:59 PM)Palladin Wrote: John,

That isn't why we posted these, I happen to agree with your assessments of "savages". Actually, I think all humanity is the same in that respect. One step away from mass murder at any time.

This is where you and I continue to part company. As I stated earlier, one of us views the cup as half empty, and the other half full. plus, I also tend to look at humanity as being "one step away from doing something remarkably good at any time." What happened yesterday, during the Baltimore protests is a classic example.

[Image: 11017493_449740798525506_29414416798803166_n.jpg]

I find such acts as confirming my belief that we are capable of doing good. I wonder what Jesus would think?

Quote: These were posted because we harp on illegal immigration and terrorism and if you were a native in 1600AD here(regardless of your morality) you yourself would say, "these terrorist white men are thieves and need to be stopped or they'll take over the whole damn place".

That's what that photo is about, not moral superiority.

The photo should also really be about accuracy, if it is to prove a salient point. Clearly the photo is not accurate historically. That's why I made the post above.



PS: Incidentally, here is someone else, who is able to find good amidst all the bad happening in Baltimore.

The Most Important Thing I Saw on the Streets of Baltimore After the Riots
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#33
(04-29-2015, 05:02 PM)Fredledingue Wrote:
JL Wrote:Ahh, the Noble Savage syndrome.
No, it's not about the noble savage. It's about the right of poeple to defend their land and repell newcomers if they don't want them.

I don't know why these indians martyred this poor girl. But barbary is often response to barbary. It doesn't need elaborating.

The immigration of europeans to the New World (or emigration from Europe) was also caused by a demographic boom and a misery not too diffenretn from that of the Third World today. But it was also accompanied with poeple with money wanting to do business and, the most important with new technologies and better organisation.

Today immigration is a problem because those who are coming are poor, illiterate and bring nothing new with them. Not even their own culture which they couldn't afford to keep.

Fred, I was using the "Noble Savage" concept to show that the first word of that phrase is less factual than the later one. That's all. In some quarters, the North American Indian is touted as the most noble of all, for a collection of reasons. My point was that the picture in question lacks credibility, and is a poor example for making a point.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#34
JL Wrote:PS: Incidentally, here is someone else, who is able to find good amidst all the bad happening in Baltimore.

The Most Important Thing I Saw on the Streets of Baltimore After the Riots
Impressive riot police gear! A mix of samurai fantasy and science fiction...
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#35
John,

Yea, we disagree. That very kid may become a mass murderer and maybe I will as well, can't know the future.

I never said humans cannot do acts of awesome kindness, I do believe in Christ after all and I know about Paul the Apostle.

That's the thing, I know about Paul the apostle.

Most "disgusting" man on earth according to him, breathing out murder against the body of Christ before he sees the risen Christ. Literally 2 separate humans in 1 body and 1 life lived and Paul is no metaphor, no historian would claim Paul is a myth.

King David, much the same. Every human heart can go either direction is my view, not that we have to go the "disgusting" route. It's that any heart at any time can be good or "disgusting". Free will thing.
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#36
You're unrestrained cynicism is totally beyond hope.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#37
I also think that humanity is leading toward more good than bad.
Things which were still acceptable 100 or 200 years ago would be totaly horrifying today (by western standards).

We are in shock when we look at the IS, but they just behave as everybody behaved 2000 years ago, when that was normal.
Should the Roman Empire come back today, we would nuke it immediately. They were not better than the IS.

The problem with you, Palladin is that you don't see this evolution. You don't want to see that we are diferent from 100 years ago. Yes, the US bombed Serbia and this killed 600 poeple. But 100 years ago the US would have killed 6,000 or 60,000 in the same circumstance, and it would be regarded as a heroic act. 100 years ago we started WW1 for less than that.

King David would live today, he would be impeached immediately for depraved conduct. Strauss Kahn would be a choir boy by comparison.

and so on and on...
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#38
(05-02-2015, 05:10 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: Should the Roman Empire come back today, we would nuke it immediately.

If the Roman Empire magically returned, what makes you think they wouldn't be armed with nukes of their own? I get the whole march of civilization thing. But the Romans were much more intelligent than we are ... they had to be, they didn't have technology to lean on. They had to memorize facts and figures and remember them for a lifetime and maneuver the rote mechanics of mathematical calculations. They were also very well versed in the process of reason. The Roman's would kick our asses today. There is no way that the Romans would have left the power vacuum in Northern Africa that is threatening to swamp modern day Italy. They would have found a way to exploit it or at least maintain order. They would have done it one way or another. And a brutal approach and an 'intelligent' approach are not mutually exclusive when it comes to an 'effective' solution.

ISIS on the other hand seems like it tends to promote and worship illiteracy and ignorance ... and those that aren't illiterate are just as dependent on technology as we are. In a perfect world, we'd have the Romans (with appropriate modern day tools) take on ISIS ... they'd wipe them out in a couple of weeks ... with a perfect combination of solid smarts and historic brutality. The problem is that after they vanquished them they'd probably turn around and enslave the rest of us weaklings. S4

As you indicated, this is viewed through the prism of our "modern western standards". But consider ... all things being equal ... that when it comes down to facing an existential threat ... who would be more likely to survive? Us ... or the Romans? .. OK that's a bad example as they were eventually displaced ... but you get the idea.

fred Wrote:Yes, the US bombed Serbia and this killed 600 poeple. But 100 years ago the US would have killed 6,000 or 60,000 in the same circumstance, and it would be regarded as a heroic act. 100 years ago we started WW1 for less than that.

Seems like you sort of skipped over Hiroshima and Nagasaki (?) That was far less than a century ago. I fear the brutality score card is destined to ebb and flow. How many lives would be taken in a 'lite' nuclear exchange? Do you really suppose the U.S. would fail to respond if attacked again? ... say with small nuke or even a dirty bomb? ... would France? Britain? The prism of modern western standards is probably much more fragile than you credit it and I expect it could get shattered quite easily and quickly under the right circumstances. Fred, we pink mist hundreds of people a year by remote control on orders from our President. We do it in a very "culturally sterile" manner ... the triggers are pulled by people in air conditioned trailers in Nevada. We usually hear a sentence or two on the news. Few if any within the boundaries of our "modern western standards" ever sees the mess or even hears the BOOM. Like squashing a bug half the planet away with a robot foot. I'm not implying that sometimes dangerous bugs don't need squashing ... but I wonder what the Romans would make of this? ... at least they got their hands dirty.

As a side note for the thread, for what it's worth, the lot of immigrants in Asia doesn't seem much better than those destined for Europe or North America.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#39
More than 4,200 migrants rescued in Mediterranean
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#40
(05-30-2015, 08:06 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: More than 4,200 migrants rescued in Mediterranean

In the last 24 hours no less. Kinda like our southern border. Only difference is that 95% of yours are Muslims, and 95% of ours are Christians.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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