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Putin's Russian Style Reconquista
#61
Ron, it difficult to get into the Russian mind and understand how they tick. I've studied them formally, and tried to do this, and I'm still at a loss. Its like this old adage of "You can take the boy out of the country, but not the country out of the boy" thing. They are used to being exploited mercilessly and tend to accept it as a normal way of life. Those who can't either turn to drugs, or make like a tree and leave.

But leaving doesn't solve the issue. Just watching Uncle Misha here, he can't throw off his ties to that regime. He claims that there is not a drop of Russian in his veins, but that is a political way of saying he is from another ethnic group, but still an official Russian by birth. Remember, there are many different non-Russian people still in Russia. For example, Tartarstan, and Chuvashia, have two different ethnic groups of non-Russians, and have their own republic within the country.

But they all tend to think pretty much the same, because of this history of repression. They'll slowly come out of it, but it takes time. Perhaps Michael will quit his sulking and decide that all this "Sodomia" propoganda is really just constant Putin media bombardment, designed to sway the masses.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#62
Ron Wrote:Communism made it all worse. But the fall of communism does not seem to have helped much.
No, it has helped a lot.
The first big improvement for Russians and USSR population was the dead of Stalin: It was the end of the Terror. Poeple started to feel less opressed, less in danger of whatever they can be denounced for.
There was some happy years after that. Then the USSR dislocated. During Gorbatchev and Yelstsin's years poeple got more individual freedom but the way of life degraded very quickely. Under Yelstsin, poeple enjoyed freedon but materialy it was much harder for Russians than before. Yelstsin's reform, influenced by the US, were unjust, inequal, absurd and by every aspects disastrous. The current oligarch-mafia system was being established by the end of Gorbatchev's term and during Yelstsin's.
Yelstsin was finaly deposed and replaced by Putin. It was not difficult for Putin to lift the boat which had reached the bottom. He solved the most urgent issues, put a break on growing oligarchism, won the Chechen war, increased petroleum production. Russians started to live better immediately after and every years their condition improved.
The living conditions in Russia are not that bad compared to poorer central asian countries and compared to 15 years ago. Business conditions are difficult, yet not as bad as in some african or other dictatorial countries. I have to be fair about this: Russia is not a third world country anymore.

Still a few facts:
- The oligarchic domination remains, where billionaires keep on building furtunes God only knows how, and why they are allowed to do so.
Big fortunes in Russia is one of the deepest mystery of this country. In the West, if there is injustice and theft too, at least we know how extremely rich poeple got their money from. In Russia it's impossible. You will only know vaguely that someone was successful in oil and/or bank business, but what before, and what extactely, and why him and not another, you will never know. It's like some poeple have been picked to become professional billionaires for reasons still unkown.

- Corruption is still a very big problem. Less than before but the improvement was just enough to make it sustainable. It still not a normal system as in the West.
Health care, justice, police and I think schools are not working normaly. Supposedly subsidized by the state, they still rely on non-official private payments. It's not realy bribery, it's just common practice to pay in cash some sum of money for the poeple to get the job done.

I wouldn't say that the russian population is being exploited mercilessly now. But even for them the current conditions are getting hard for their nerves.
Poeple drink less, think more. They know that they are capable of being a great nation, just if the system could change.

JL Wrote:He claims that there is not a drop of Russian in his veins, but that is a political way of saying he is from another ethnic group
He is either Russian or married a Russian. I can't explain how he speaks/understand Russian so well if he has not either russian relatives or been living there (which he didn't). One day he told that he made some business in or with Russia. I can tell you that you don;t even start a business there if you don't have relatives or very good friends in the place.
Russian is a very difficult language.

Ron Wrote:The thing that I find hardest to understand--that seems to fly in the face of all this--is that the "pro-Russians" in eastern Ukraine are still trying to merge with Russia, instead of fleeing to western Ukraine. Maybe Ukraine is even worse!
Ukraine before the Maiden Revolution was 100% identicaly the same as Russia: Same corruption, same oligrachic structure, same social injustice, same red tape non sens, same police... and also same architecture, same poeple, same language or almost, same school, same food, same culture, same way to smile, same humor, same music... same everything.
To find a difference you realy had to dig up some tiny details only local museum experts could understand.

Perhaps Ukraine was even worse but then the difference wouldn't have been big.

Why pro-Russians?
Several reasons:

- Protestors revolted against this system and those who profited from this system were afraid of losing their privileges. Perhaps there was a decision to remove some privileges from more poeple in the DonBas region.

- The old regime was pro-russian, the new one is pro West. For poeple who profited from being pro-Russian, it's logical to stay on the side of Russia.

- Poeple don't trust the Kiev governement. They believe more in Putin or in their own local poeple (the rebels are split about this).
Pro-Russian propaganda, of course, created the mistrust against the new governement.

- Poeple do feel Russian ethnicaly. Always wanted to be in Russia, a great country were their father and grandfather were born. Russians are better than others.
(I think this still plays to some extent)

- Pensioneers believed that their pensions will be higher with Russia. Bad luck: Russian pensions are paid in Crimea, not in rebel-controlled areas of Ukraine where Kiev has stopped paying pensions for obvious reasons. As a result they don't recieve anything.

- Putin invaded, showed that he's the strongest and that's all. Poeple have to agree.
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#63
I have to take issue with some of Fred's reply. I was reading an article where Putin has largely destroyed or co-opted the oligarchs of Russia. Ukraine hasn't at all done so.

I agree with Fred that the fall of communism was great because Russians are not desirous of ruling the globe now.

Russians do not want to flee to the USA as Ron thinks, they cannot stand the USA. A poll yesterday indicated they hate the USA way more right now than in 1960 under all the USSR pr campaigns.

There was an era I would guess between 1970 and 1990 where they had an idea about us that was idealistic. They had come to see their own state as full of crap.

Now, they no longer see us as good at all. Of course there are some that do(my daughter works with a Russian girl who hates Russia), but, the society largely hates us worse than hell.
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#64
(03-10-2015, 07:51 PM)Palladin Wrote: Russians do not want to flee to the USA as Ron thinks, they cannot stand the USA. A poll yesterday indicated they hate the USA way more right now than in 1960 under all the USSR pr campaigns.


Depends on the Russian. I have a friend that is very happy and glad to be here. Many, many immigrated here during the "Soviet pr" era. I'm not aware of any mass exodus of Russian ex-pats away from our eeeeevil empire. Haven't heard from mv here lately ... maybe he went home (??)
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#65
If the Russians are drinking less, then that is a good sign. During the USSR, the only refuge of the average Russian was in the vodka bottle--the only consumable that most Russians could afford.

Yes, Russia could become a great nation. It certainly has the natural resources, plus a huge amount of land. The only thing holding them back is themselves.

One of my younger brothers learned Russian when he was a student at the University of Michigan. We never could get him to speak any Russian for us.
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#66
(03-10-2015, 10:26 PM)mr_yak Wrote: Depends on the Russian. I have a friend that is very happy and glad to be here. Many, many immigrated here during the "Soviet pr" era. I'm not aware of any mass exodus of Russian ex-pats away from our eeeeevil empire. Haven't heard from mv here lately ... maybe he went home (??)

Highly unlikely. He is a college professor, teaching computer code to the little hellions living in and around New Yawk. My best guess is that he is sulking, because I moved his favorite threads into the 'Sand box' where the children can play. He's done that several times before, the last being when he had that confrontation with Joan, my computer site mechanic. Uncle Misha is an old timey sexist, and did not like having a woman being in charge of things. He left in a huff, but returned later on, none the less for wear. I believe he also took along our young Tait, who is ever striving for manliness. I suspect he has this Putin idolizing impulse and wants to cash in on the anti-Sodomia bandwagon.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#67
Speaking to Russians online, it's safe to say they can't stand the US. Putin is like all other leaders, he is not on an anti Russian tangent, he is serving the larger desires of his people like Obama is his.

That's just the way it is , no leader operates long outside the acceptable range of what people want. They lose their heads when that happens.
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#68
Pallatin

Yeah, right. Duckbutt is serving the larger desires of his people first, and Duckbutt second. And Progressives in this country are doing same thing here as well. That makes sense from a purely utopian POV.

Jack

You have the right idea. Don't get up set, but sit back and enjoy the theater. Throw in a few impersonal questions and watch the show. I wish I could do that, but I seem to have more invested in this than you. That's why I am thoroughly burned out.

I even offered to let him take over this forum from me, but still waiting an answer. He probably skimmed over that one as well, just as he will most likely skim over this.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#69
It seems that things are not as cut and dried as the police would have everyone believe, concerning who murdered Boris Nemtsov.

More Questions Arise as Main Suspect in Murder of Prominent Putin Critic Claims He Was ‘Tortured’, Forced to Confess

Quote:MOSCOW (AP) — The main suspect in Russian opposition politician Boris Nemtsov’s killing has signs of torture on his body and was forced to confess to the shooting, a human rights activist said Wednesday.

MOSCOW, RUSSIA - FEBRUARY 28: Police guards the place of murders of Boris Nemtsov on Moskvoretsky bridge in Moscow, Russia on February 28, 2015. Russian opposition leader and formed Deputy Prime Minister Boris Nemtsov was shot dead at night February 28 just a few steps from the Kremlin.

Investigators didn’t confirm or deny the accusations made by Andrei Babushkin, a member of a Russian human rights commission. But they said Babushkin may have broken the law by making the comments.

Babushkin told The Associated Press that he visited the detention center where main suspect Zaur Dadaev had been held on Tuesday.

Babushkin said there were abrasions on Dadaev’s body and that he had been “tortured by those who detained him” and later taken to the Investigative Committee, where “he was forced to confess.”
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#70
Palladin Wrote:I was reading an article where Putin has largely destroyed or co-opted the oligarchs of Russia. Ukraine hasn't at all done so.
Putin tamed the oligarchs. But didn't destroy them.
But oligarchism (the higher state of corruption) is only one problem. Corruption at every levels of the administration is even worse a problem. Low and intermediate level mafias are also a problem.
Putin doesn't fight this as long as they pay respect to him and pay taxes too.

Ukraine was not under direct control of Putin but there were no differences.

I would say the new Ukrainian leadership is doing in Ukraine today what Putin did in Russia 10 years ago.
Yatseniuk being to Poroshenko what Putin was to Yelstsin if one can caricature them this way...
But they do it in a way that will make Ukraine pro-EU and not pro-Putin.
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#71
What the article I read indicated is Putin destroyed the Russki oligarchs. That doesn't mean they're all run off or in prison, those who are not are now his pawns was the point. Part of the definition with me

I share MV's view of UKE, it is run by career criminals and mentally unbalanced people and any UKE kid who is unfortunate enough to be in the military service of that state is a victim of "disgusting" insanity.

I hate what I see in UKE on both sides, but, the UKE kids are being used as bad as any kids I have ever seen. At least our's volunteer for the nonsense the USA is about.
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#72
The problem overall is the system. Ukraine grew up under the corrupt Russian system, dating way back to the early tsars, and it has continued on up to today. Unraveling the system and getting it out of the blood of the country is a long and drawn out process. And Ukraine got all of this from Mother Russia. Putin is no different.

But at least Ukraine is trying to make changes. Putin is using it for his own desires, and has no desire to change it. That's what Uncle Misha has decided not to see. Even though he is now a US citizen, he can't shake the culture he was born into.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#73
I see no evidence UKE is doing anything except being tun for the benefit of a handful of mentally unbalanced humans.

As educated as you are, John, you really don't know a thing about governance. Castro for example would easily win an election today, so would Putin. Stalin would have won in a landslide anytime in his reign, Hitler as well. Leaders cannot do what their people do not want long.

This idea you have of true "dictators" has never existed, not even in ancient pagan lands. The people always had to believe the ancient king was either a god, was going to become a god or was associated with a high god. Otherwise, he had no cred and didn't last, King Tut( I think it was Tut) is a good example, because he had the idea the people should worship Aten alone and they rebelled.

The closest thing to a dictatorship is like what we have where we vote for people and change faces and names for our governance, but, not our governance. The same trends continue forward, the same uber wealthy people decide what will and will not be done and nothing can be done because IF we had a revolution, we'd start right back with our bought and paid for governors and our people who prefer lawless governance.
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#74
I was going to ask what folks make of Putin's sudden and puzzling 'disappearance'

... and now this!

It just keeps getting stranger.

Also this "mystery announcement" in the weirdness column.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#75
(03-13-2015, 08:46 PM)mr_yak Wrote: I was going to ask what folks make of Putin's sudden and puzzling 'disappearance'

... and now this!

It just keeps getting stranger.

Also this "mystery announcement" in the weirdness column.

Makes sense, the first link.

Second link, they certainly do know how to lay on the propaganda don't they? Maybe Duckbutt is going to make an ultimatum to McDaddy, and challenge him. After all, its the only manly thing to do. Right Tait,...if you're out there.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#76
There was an article yesterday by a former Putin advisor that this non Putin appearance thing is not about a coup, but, that there are challenges to Medvedev's role.

He felt like 2 major insiders would soon be replaced, but, I forgot their titles or names.
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#77
The other day I was thinking about "Friendly Fascism", by the late Bertram Gross. I was doing this, while thinking about how Putin is obviously using this as their main play book, as recently shown by our own Uncle Misha.

And then this came in today in my mailbox: Internet Trolls: Propaganda's Final Frontier. Suddenly it is all coming together as to why Russia is so willing to fall victim to the duckbutt's information machine.

Of course, Russia is not the only one using this. China is playing catchup, as with others, including the US. But in our case, most of this is ineffectively directed outward, and mostly in the direction of the Middle East. We are playing catchup to the master of the game: Russia.

Quote:Russia

Beyond the indisputable fact of its existence, few details are known of the Russian government’s program to manipulate Internet opinion. It seems to have evolved in some way from the Nashi, a Kremlin-funded anti-fascist youth group that was founded in 2007 and folded in 2012. Hackers broke into the email account of a Nashi spokesperson in 2012 and discovered that the group had paid out hundreds of thousands of pounds to a network of bloggers, journalists, and freelance commenters to provide flattering coverage of Vladimir Putin and criticize his opponents. A year later, Russian journalists evidently stumbled across another arm of the program while investigating a St. Petersburg company called the Internet Research Agency. When an undercover reporter responded to an ad offering cash to surf the Internet, she was given the task of ‘sh*tting’ on opposition politician Alexei Navalny in four separate blog posts. The office was like an Internet café, according to the reporter, with one room devoted to blog posts on social networks and the other to commenting on news stories. Employees were paid the equivalent of $36.50 for an 8-hour work day, and the office appeared to be run by a man with close links to the municipal committee on youth policy.

While it remains difficult to trace the funding and command structure of these Russian ‘web brigades,’ their presence is keenly felt by media organizations covering Russian affairs. A 2009 article by Anna Polyanskaya, Andrei Krivov, and Ivan Lomko entitled The Kremin’s Virtual Squad gives insight into their modus operandi. The article notes that the Russian Internet was mostly Progressive-leaning around 1999 before taking a hard authoritarian turn in the years to follow. It credits this ideological shift in part to the rise of the ‘G-Team,’ a group of government-supported commenters who champion an ideology that is anti-American, anti-Semitic, and anti-Progressive. Members of the G-Team go a step further than simply disseminating government talking points; they actively target more Progressive contributors with the aim of elbowing them out of the conversation completely, sometimes with threats of physical harm and even murder. The authors provide a list of ideological tics shared by members of the G-Team. It includes:


Whitewashing Stalinism.

A sensitivity to casting the KGB/FSB in a negative light.

Loyalty to the Putin regime.

Support of the Chechen War.

Anti-Americanism and anti-Westernism.

Nostalgia for the USSR.

Hatred of intelligentsia, particularly emigrants.

Hatred of dissidents and human rights advocates.



If the list were re-compiled for 2015, ‘labeling the Ukrainian government fascist’ would figure prominently, as the Guardian discovered first-hand in the months following the breakout of the conflict. That was when moderators first starting noticing a ‘particularly nasty strain’ of trolling that manifests whenever Vladimir Putin or Russian foreign policy is cast in a negative light. The scale and ferocity of the trolling was such that it caused an upsurge in complaints from regular users who felt their voices were being drowned out. Guardian moderators believe that some unknown pro-Kremlin group is behind the campaign.

And note that one of the consistent themes Michael continued using was the "National Socialist", "Nazi", and "Fascist" theme in a large percentage of his posts. Regardless the fact that while it is almost certainly a minority, that minority is easily manipulated, via photographs, and the words of many, easily taken out of context.

And Michael is a college professor here in the US, highly educated, but a regular visitor of all these Putin manipulated web sites. Add to this the fact that McDaddy's ineptness is playing right into their game plan. This is quite worrying once the reader is able to realize just what Putin is doing so skillfully.

And its also one of the main reasons why I do not favor economic sanctions. The US and the EU have fallen right into the very trap that Putin is using against them. By placing the blame squarely on the West, he is able to create a siege mentality that is doing far more to strengthen his position among Russia's citizens.

Quote:Conclusion

The possibilities are endless in terms of where things go from here. Will the 50-centers remain inwardly focused or, like their Russian counterparts, begin operating on the English-language Internet? Will Western governments ramp up their own efforts? And perhaps most interestingly: Will we see propaganda ‘alliances’ between one or more national governments when their interests align against a third party?

Of course, the real loser in this will be anyone looking for an honest and open exchange of ideas on the Internet – if such a person ever truly existed in the first place.

Of course, our own media Whores have been carrying the water for the Left for decades now, and this is not going to change any time soon. Fortunately, in the US, the Right, i.e. Individualist Right, is able to counter this by being the US internet pioneers, due to their frustration at the Whores in the MSM. Russia seems to be almost void of good anti-Putin influence, and dovetails right back to Mr. Gross's "Friendly Fascism" theme, that was written before the internet really took off.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#78
What you are describing happens here John w/o the state paying it's civilian robots, you're just blind to reality.

Our government doesn't even have to pay Fox or CNN and when the state says a foreign state deserves US violence or economic strangulation if need be, they broadcast it as if it is Gospel truth. There are never questions asked anymore.

At least the Russki state has to pay people off to parrot their trash.


We've attacked Iraq and Syria for whatever logic and the people are not in any uproar right here.

It's insanity, destroying the oldest Christian communities since Christ, empowering Iranian hegemony across the fertile crescent, empowering ISIS and creating murderous chaos of hell and not even right here do we seem overly concerned, but, you sure can point out how "disgusting" Russia is.

You're just blind to our own flaws. They are worse than what you are describing, our governors don't have to pay our robots to parrot their bs. At least Putin is paying folks off.
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#79
You know, I had a long post, trying to address at your inflexibility and eternal quest for perfection, or nothing else mentality. But its really not worth getting offended any longer. I just had to delete it.

You're on your own. I'm not going to bother responding to you, until you find something to be positive about. Its not worth it anymore.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#80
I'll leave you alone, but, you are really not interested in debate as MV pointed out. I'm just either mentally retarded, some kind of cult religious influence has taken over or whatever, there is never an attempt to reply w/o pejorative disrespectfulness.

The USA media is 100% ass licking to the US state on foreign affairs . You ignoring that isn't going to change it and for you or anyone else to be describing Russian or any other's flaws in this respect while preaching Americans are exceptional is as ludicrous as Germans doing so in 1940.
Bye bye.
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