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Middle East Meltdown, Pt. 4
#61
Palladin Wrote:Before anyone yearns for Bush, it was that thoughtless, tone deaf man that effectively removed Iraq as a shield against Iranian hegemony in Asia minor.
I don't think Saddam was very effective a wall against Iran, but fact is, that Bashar al Assad was Saddam's ally before, and became Iran's ally after.

The sistuation hasn't changed much in this respect: The IS is as effective as Saddam against Iran. So well that we are in anti-sunnite phase now.
We will shift to anti-Shias once Iran will be deemed too strong in the M-E, then we will re-arm the sunnites.

Palladin Wrote:If you are naive enough to think the American people are now going on an anti ISIS or Iran military crusade, you do not know us well. We're about done with wars for quite some time that cause casualties.
For the moment there is no need for a crusade against Islam in the M-E: Islamists are killing each others themselves alone.
When the place will be completely destroyed, in a state still 1000x worse than what we see today, then it will be time to intervene. I mean after a major humanitarian crisis (not during or to avert one). Some crisis so deep that it will be a shame to be muslim anymore.

I don't think we should go to war (thought bombing from afar is ok). The war against Islam should an cultural one. We have to teach these poeple that Islam kills poeple, destoys civilisation and makes them poor.

Somehow with the radicalisation of Islam, the increasing violence linked to this religion, the growing concept of Califate (wehter it's Iranian/Persian, IS or another sunni/egyptian/turkish axis) will one day oblige us to enter a fight on the religious basis (Crusade). Because we will be forced to by those who are already fighting on a religious basis and whose behavior became generalized.

Everybody is radical Islam in most of the muslim world now. Sooner or later we will have to fight the notion of radical Islam or simply, of Islam instead of certain regimes.

Palladin Wrote:Exceptional Americans we are, it will still rival Hitlerian achievements in human misery and I suspect we'll be adding to our chaos creation in the coming years.

Yes, Hitler didn't manage to make his ennemies kill each others. Hitler would have been much better at his job if he had managed to have France fighting against Britain and the US fighting against the other two.

No tell me Palladin, do you realy think that every muslim who kill another muslim in the M-E or Africa is doing it under the direct influence of the US or under the influence of his fanatic belief in his tribal religion?

JL Wrote:I absolutely agree, we should have gone in and taken Afghanistan out. But where you and I differ is that I believe we should have gotten out of there with a simple "That hurt didn't it? Now, do you want me to do this again?" reminder. It would have saved us a cool trillion dollars.
+ Had you left immediately, nobody would have said that you lost the war.
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#62
(03-04-2015, 03:46 PM)Palladin Wrote: Had Bush leveled them, he'd be a mass murderer making Hitler look like a girl scout, too. No big consideration here, just as a reminder.

Victors write history Palladin. And while Bush may have presided over a draw, he didn't end up like Hitler, Mussolini, or Tojo. Mao was the greatest mass murderer of the 20th century, yet you rarely see him condemned for it ... at least not in the "main stream". To be redundant from past posts, the only 'successful' invasion of Afghanistan was conducted by Genghis Khan. Rather than incorporating it into his empire, he vacated the place in less than three years leaving huge mounds of skulls ... just a reminder ... that's what made him 'successful'.

John,

Your not being "All one way, or all the other" not withstanding, you DO realize THE major critical success factor for the cultists in Iraq and Syria (and an ever growing number of outlets) is to pull us into directly into a wider, bloodier conflict by whatever means necessary ... you do get that right? Effectively we have traded the Afghanistan of 2001 for a place that we vacated in 2011 by Executive Fiat. It's less a question of who "got it right" than who is managing to fuck it up even worse.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#63
(03-04-2015, 09:27 PM)Fredledingue Wrote:
JL Wrote:I absolutely agree, we should have gone in and taken Afghanistan out. But where you and I differ is that I believe we should have gotten out of there with a simple "That hurt didn't it? Now, do you want me to do this again?" reminder. It would have saved us a cool trillion dollars.
+ Had you left immediately, nobody would have said that you lost the war.

Yep, there's that too Fred. We are great at winning each and every battle, and then trying to rebuild everything we have destroyed, expecting everything, and everyone, to join hands and humm kumbaya. And in the process of being Captain America, and Superman, all rolled into one, we lose everything we had gained. We even approach bankruptcy.

And not only that, we wind up with Americans also hating the rest of us in the process. Its just not worth it.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#64
Jack, I think my understanding is quite thorough these days. I'm just not content with what is occurring with us and the rest of the world. Ugh!

Perhaps we should invite Uncle Vova(Walter) to come in and take over for us? That should keep him busy there instead of thinking about gobbling up Baltic states and rest of Ukraine.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#65
Fred,

You need to read more before opining, Sadaam's Iraq was a mortal enemy to Syria's Assad regime and even if he wasn't, what difference is that to us? The Assad's have been Iranian clients from day 1. That's why Israel wants Assad gone and it's why the US wants Assad gone, at the expense of empowering Sunni opposition like ISIS.

Assuming the USA under Bush still wanted to be Rome, invading Iraq was an act of insanity. Only Americans could have felt that could be done and the religious divide not become violent. You Europeans had more sense than to buy our nonsense about Iraq, so why do you now? You people are not deluded by our "we are exceptional people" thinking, you know better than this bs.

Yak,

If you kill 60 million people(Iraq plus Afghanistan) in 2015 AD, you are not going to escape being fingered as Hitlerian. People can read and see. This chaos in the ME is catalyzed by our nation and millions are going to die before this fire of religious warfare is done with. That's America's role in it.

We think we're doing good and that doesn't absolve us. Hitler just knew killing off Jews was good. So did the mindless idiots that supported Germany then.

BTW, before ISIS took command over there, al qaeda had al Nusra. Good ole American armed, but, even I assume this is by accident. We're incompetent, so maybe our "disgusting" won't reach the levels Hitler did in his day:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...-ISIS.html
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#66
(03-05-2015, 02:36 PM)Palladin Wrote: If you kill 60 million people(Iraq plus Afghanistan) in 2015 AD, you are not going to escape being fingered as Hitlerian.

What about assisting 50,000 or so suicidal shitheads to follow their chosen path?
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#67
(03-04-2015, 11:59 PM)John L Wrote: Perhaps we should invite Uncle Vova(Walter) to come in and take over for us? That should keep him busy there instead of thinking about gobbling up Baltic states and rest of Ukraine.

As far as foreign expeditions go, they did quite poorly in Afghanistan before we "took over" for them there. Why would he/they want to squander resources on on the ME? Particularly when his clients in Iran are stepping up to the plate. Apparently Obama thinks that it's such a great idea that he's trying to make people think HE thought of it first.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#68
Yak,

That would be just great, but, if you think that's what we're about right now, you are not thinking. We are allied with Sunni regional powers and Israel, they all hate Iran and the Sunnis despise Shiites and Iranians.

Iran is on the march, they now own access to the straits of Hormuz and the Red Sea at Yemen with proxies in Yemen(Houthis). They have a Shia shield from Lebanon to Iran, American power added Iraq to that shield. Now that was a bright move there.


You are not using your brain if you think the USA is opposing ISIS, we are behind ISIS. Just as Israel, SA, Qatar and Turkey are.

Isn't it odd how ISIS can attack areas as widespread as Raqqa, Syria and Kirkuk , Iraq and we never, ever read about a major whacking the "coalition AF" does to ISIS like the old highway of death? Seemed to take 2 months to help Kurds move them away from a small town named Kobane, think we really meant to move them out of there?

They just finished bulldozing ancient Nimrud, Assyria and the news media has photos, but, the awesome exceptional USAF didn't know of it?

Reality sometime just dictates unpalatable truths are truths. Our nation is behind this group of thugs on behalf of our national interests, which are in consonance with Israel,Turkey, Qatar and SA.

The Iranians and Iraqis know it, too. Notice they have attacked Tikrit and they have nothing to do with the USA at all. They'll accept the losses, they are not idiots, they know what we're about.
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#69
When you say "our nation," you are really talking about the demented, wrong-headed Obama administration.
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#70
Mr Y Wrote:It's less a question of who "got it right" than who is managing to fuck it up even worse.
S2


Palladin Wrote:Fred,

You need to read more before opining, Sadaam's Iraq was a mortal enemy to Syria's Assad regime and even if he wasn't, what difference is that to us? The Assad's have been Iranian clients from day 1. That's why Israel wants Assad gone and it's why the US wants Assad gone,
No the Assads (father, then the son) were chiefs of the Baath Party in Syria, just as Sadam was in Iraq and they were allies.
It doesn't mean that they couldn't be ally or even client of Iran before, during or after. Oriental poeple...

Palladin Wrote:at the expense of empowering Sunni opposition like ISIS.
I don't believe you when you write that the US or the West is supporting the IS.

We supported the insurgency in the beginning and some funds and perhaps weapons reached the IS groups (At that time it wasn't named IS yet)... but now the US is bombing IS with the help of the kurds, the local christians and jordanians. Or any piece of information I can get on this topic is fabrication?

Why would IS Allah's Warriors slit the throats of humanitairan suicide workers if we support them? Non sens.

I believe some groups are able to rise, be powerful and win without the help of the US and without satelite imagery. Is it so difficult to understand that????

They win because they are extremely violent and everybody fear them. But they are losing ground in many part of Kurdistan and the shias are encircling them in Tikrit. And of course that the US is not going to help the Iranian ultra-fanatic Martyrs (previousely The Immortals) brigades!

Palladin Wrote:They just finished bulldozing ancient Nimrud, Assyria and the news media has photos, but, the awesome exceptional USAF didn't know of it?
And why should they know it?
And what could they do? Bomb the site?
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#71
(03-06-2015, 03:56 PM)Ron Lambert Wrote: When you say "our nation," you are really talking about the demented, wrong-headed Obama administration.

The wrong-headed Obama Administration could crush Iran at this moment in history and open it up for regional attack ... yet he is doing the polar opposite. He's doing this to obfuscate the "real goal". Allow me write Palladin's next post ... the brew ha ha was between Bibi and Obama was misunderstood! ... as Israel is actually backing Iran against as a counter against U.S. backed ISIS ... but only as a ruse as they support ISIS!! Netanyahu said the exact opposite of what he meant. And THAT is what really infuriated Obama. Up is down and down is up ... and then it's down again ... etc. etc. S24
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#72
(03-06-2015, 09:49 PM)mr_yak Wrote:
(03-06-2015, 03:56 PM)Ron Lambert Wrote: When you say "our nation," you are really talking about the demented, wrong-headed Obama administration.

The wrong-headed Obama Administration could crush Iran at this moment in history and open it up for regional attack ... yet he is doing the polar opposite. He's doing this to obfuscate the "real goal". Allow me write Palladin's next post ... the brew ha ha was between Bibi and Obama was misunderstood! ... as Israel is actually backing Iran against as a counter against U.S. backed ISIS ... but only as a ruse as they support ISIS!! Netanyahu said the exact opposite of what he meant. And THAT is what really infuriated Obama. Up is down and down is up ... and then it's down again ... etc. etc. S24

S13
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#73
Ron,

No, this is a typical foreign policy decision any POTUS would lead, not just Obama. The only move the US has done that does not "fit" in this Israel,Qatar,SA,Turkey and UAE anti shiite/Iran nexus is invading Iraq.

Bush is the lone wolf here, not Obama. Every past US POTUS from FDR till now would do this. Our allies all want it done, the Sunni Arabs and Turks want Iran/shia stopped dead cold, the Israelis want it because the shiites are an existential threat to Israel led by Iran.

Our alliances with bad people began way before Obama. Just in our days, we've allied with genocidal central Americans(Reagan actively supported Rios Montt and the man was a genocidal man, do your own research). Reagan knew what was happening, he's no different than all the rest of the drones running our country.

FDR allied with Stalin, Reagan armed jihadis in Afghanistan and while no one cared, they too beheaded people. This siding with ISIS is a natural move based on who our local allies are.

Are they exactly what we want? No, I suspect Obama really wishes they were not acting quite like cro magnon man, but, they are who we have and that's that.

That's machiavellian foreign affairs no Christian should touch with a 100,000 foot pole. There are other reasons, this is enough to disabuse all but mindless robots not to support "their country" w/o thinking what we're doing.
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#74
You make it sound as though we shouldn't get involved in anything, especially if the use of force is involved. What, in your new outlook on how the world works, would it require for you to sanction the use of force?

I'm throwing this out, because I continue to get the impression that under no circumstances should force be applied to anything. But if so, then what should we do about the spread of militant Islam? And please don't counter with "There wouldn't be any militant Islam, if not for the US's starting all this." It would be there in spite of the US, and probably even worse to someone, if not their own people.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#75
JL Wrote:what should we do about the spread of militant Islam? And please don't counter with "There wouldn't be any militant Islam, if not for the US's starting all this."
S2

According to Palladin, Prophet Muhamad's Jihad in the 7th C. wouldn't have existed if the US didn't invade Iraq in 2003.

Please someone explain to him that present events don't influence past ones!
I have no energy to do so anymore!!!
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#76
Fred,



The current jihad in the peninsula would not be as capable as it is and may not even have existed w/o the US helping destroying 3 local state governments that were actively anti jihadi.

Ron,

Concerning your Obama comment, that simply is not in consonance with biblical theology. Leaders reflect the combined virtues of their people. That's a standard biblical concept. To the extent you see Obama as leading us in "disgusting" ways, that's who we are collectively.

In ancient Israel, the king was seen as the people and this was true of neighboring pagan kings. Daniel told Nebuchadnezzar, "king, you are that head of gold" when he was discussing the kingdom of Babylon in chapter 2. When the Israeli high priest tore his robes, the entire nation was guilty, it's in the OT text. When Caiaphas tore his high priestly robes, it was on for Israel bad.
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#77
(03-09-2015, 07:53 PM)Fredledingue Wrote:
JL Wrote:what should we do about the spread of militant Islam? And please don't counter with "There wouldn't be any militant Islam, if not for the US's starting all this."
S2

According to Palladin, Prophet Muhamad's Jihad in the 7th C. wouldn't have existed if the US didn't invade Iraq in 2003.

Please someone explain to him that present events don't influence past ones!
I have no energy to do so anymore!!!

Fred, that's not really what I meant, and I'm guilty of not using my English properly. What I really should have stated was, ""There wouldn't be any current militant Islam, if not for the US's starting all this." I'm sure Palladin would not think that we are responsible for past deeds. S13

But the universe is dynamic, and not static. Placing that one event as the main cause for other events is just not logical.

And don't get me wrong, I agree with him that we really had no business invading Iraq. But the reason was because it was not in our long term best interest. I really don't give a 'fig' about Islam on all this. Whether or not we invaded, eventually the pressure from fundamentalist Islam, i.e. al Qaeda, Boki Harem, etc., would have overthrown Saddam, or something even worse. And the repercussions may well have been even worse. All we did was upset the timetable, and waste immense resources in the process.

Palladin has come upon a new revelation on the universe, along with some form of fundamentalist Christianity, and is in the process of "bending steel", so to speak. If you wish to bend good steel, you must first bend it much further than you want it to look in the end. Eventually, it will go back to a more accurate position, and nothing like the initial pressure. Palladin is in the middle of that "over-pull" and is at the far extreme position. I suspect he will eventually be moving back to a more reasonable, and logical, position once he realizes that he is perhaps overdoing things a bit. S22
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#78
Palladin Wrote:The current jihad in the peninsula would not be as capable as it is and may not even have existed w/o the US helping destroying 3 local state governments that were actively anti jihadi.
I agree. But the Jihad existed before in the shape of Al-Qaida. I agree it's more powerful now and the US helped them, albeit, IMO, inadvertantly.

But, Palladin, you have to understand that it was still the locals who overthrew their governements. In the cases of Egypt and Syria, they started with massive street protests. The Egyptians even did it twice. The US is unabble to put hundred of thousand of poeple in the streets just with CIA undercover funding.

In the case of Iraq, the US came and removed Saddam but the arab Spring started 10 years later and after the americans left the region.
And remeber, the Americans left Saudis Arabia with the sole purpose to remove OBL's main claim of Mecca being under infidel occupation. It was a clever move (the base just had to move to Qatar).

Probably had Saddam stayed in place, the IS would be much weaker and maybe not controling vast areas as today. But it existed before. And Saddam's power was slowly eroding. As John said it would have emerged one day or another.

Muslim of the M-E would have been fighting even without US help, believe me. When you look at them now, it's obvious that this is not the result of Saddam being removed alone.
Or even from Saddam, Ghadafy, Mubarak and Assad and the Tunisian former president (forgot his name). Poeple there choosed to do that.

There were also some Gulf power seizing the occasion to fund, arm and manipulate Islamic group for their own interrests. That was more significant than US involvement.
I think that waht makes IS so strong now, beside that dictators were removed, Saddam first (I don't deny this) is that muslim countries have funded and supported them in many ways, including moraly. They are still asking Qatar to stop funding IS as we speak!

The IS is an extremely dangerous movement, US mistakes nothwithstanding.

Of course History is full of such disastrous mistakes. Don't worry, Bush Junior was not the first. Obama not the second. Just read the history of the Byzantine Empire...


JL Wrote:Palladin has come upon a new revelation on the universe, along with some form of fundamentalist Christianity, and is in the process of "bending steel", so to speak. If you wish to bend good steel, you must first bend it much further than you want it to look in the end. Eventually, it will go back to a more accurate position, and nothing like the initial pressure. Palladin is in the middle of that "over-pull" and is at the far extreme position. I suspect he will eventually be moving back to a more reasonable, and logical, position once he realizes that he is perhaps overdoing things a bit.
He! yes! S5
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#79
Look, I get that some Muslims are anti intellectual nuts. I don't say we created anti intellectual nutism within Islamic culture, I say the US destroying Hussein, Khaddafi and attempting to Assad has opened Pandora's box for these Sunni jihadists to act with impunity.

I also think having our footprint so large in Muslim states causes legitimate Muslim angst against us that is not anti intellectual stupidity, we'd be violent if they ruled North America or Europe. That's how people act under those conditions.

As far as John's "fundy Christian" thing I am into, wrong, almost exactly the opposite. I have lost my American centric pseudo Christianity which told me the USA was special and concentrated on honoring Christ w/o competition from things like what state I accidentally got born into.

I think I can see our flaws along with everyone else's. If I were a Russian, Swiss, Israeli or Burmese, I'd see the same flaws. The difference with the USA is we cause people problems 5000 miles from home and Burmese or Swiss don't do that.
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#80
And now the interesting case of Erdogan and the cleaning lady. Cronyism is very much alive, and thriving, around the world. S5

But this is only one case, because there seems to be others as well.

Quote:Scores of people in Turkey have been detained or have testified for “insulting” Erdoğan or Davutoğlu over the past few months. Defendants include prominent journalist Can Dündar, former Miss Turkey Merve Büyüksaraç, singer-turned-Twitter-activist Atilla Taş, and several teenagers.

Heaven help anyone, who has the audacity to criticize the Dear Leader. S13
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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