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Catalan Independence & Spain's Future Economic Collapse
#21
And proud of it too
Sodomia delenda est

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#22
JL Wrote:Why would it destroy the economy? Perhaps hurt it temporarily, but destroy is permanent, correct?
Correct. The destruction would be permanent.
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#23
(11-10-2014, 07:47 PM)Fredledingue Wrote:
JL Wrote:Why would it destroy the economy? Perhaps hurt it temporarily, but destroy is permanent, correct?
Correct. The destruction would be permanent.

And that is exactly why it will not be destroyed as you state.
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#24
John, if a group succeed in dismantling the EU, even politicaly, legaly and democraticaly, the european economy, the economy of all EU member states will crumble immediately with no recovery possible.

Even if after that we recreate the EU out of nostalgy for our glorious past it will takes two or three decades to come back to our current prosperity.

If one or more member states leave the EU, they will be instantly in economic depression. Because they may still benefit from the presence of wealthier neighbors who stayed in the EU, the damage may be not as heavy as if the whole bloc was dismantled.
But because the British Islands have no neighbors, they will suffer more than any other.

Of course they can always leave the EU and keep 99% of all the agreements that had when being in the EU to preserve their economy. But then what's the point? Populism?

You will notice that those who oppose your downsiding trend are also far-right and anti-EU.
(Exception for Flamish in Belgium who are far-right and, one group at least, anti-EU.)

Polish far-right march participants Wrote:"Down with the European Union!"
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#25
Fred, I suspect you are using that wacko, antiquated, and totally irrational Euro definition of "Right Wing". When I use it I am referring to Individualism, which is the opposite of Collectivism. So tell me, just what is your definition of "Right Wing"? And what makes them so horrible?

As for EU economy being destroyed, what was wrong with earlier Common Market? It seemed to work very well, if I recall correctly. Why couldn't it revert back to that?
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#26
JL Wrote:Fred, I suspect you are using that wacko, antiquated, and totally irrational Euro definition of "Right Wing".
I didn't use the term "Right Wing". I used the term "Far Right", a completely different species.
The "Right Wing" are the normal, pro-business, party (usualy one party) opposed to The Socialist aka "The Left" and to collectivism in general. That's the ones I vote for, when I do vote. (<== sentence not ending with a conjunction. Beach )

The "Far Right" are the neo-Nazi or a vanilla version, wannabe politicaly correct, of neo-Nazism.
The more popular they are the less they are neo-nazi and the more they are anti-EU nationalist. The program of mainstream far-right parties can be reduced to anti-EU, anti-immigration and national pride.

This neither an antiquated or irrational description. It's the current reality in European politics. We don't have "Left" or "Right", we have many more nuances than that. The "Left", for eample is divided between at least 3 factions: "The Far Left", "The Socialists" and "The Greens". Within "The Green", you have poeple who are far-left, rather-left and center-right.

"The Right Wing" and "The Far Right" avoid making alliances with each others, don't like each others, have oposite views on the EU and other things, but they may form a coalition of the unwillings to counter the socialists or simply to have a functional governement (Belgium).
"The Far-Right" is not, by no means, an extention of the "Right Wing". It's a thrid political group, if you want.

JL Wrote:what was wrong with earlier Common Market? It seemed to work very well, if I recall correctly. Why couldn't it revert back to that?
Because Common Market has never changed. It's still there in the same form as initialy shaped. Basicaly, the EU internal trade pacts is The Common Market.
The EU "norms" include all the add-ons which make it more efficient or that were simply necessary to make it workable until today.

Euroskeptics who blame these norms and rules are simply ignoring the benefits of having common norms and rules. They look at their local place. They don't understand why it has to be centralized in Brussels. They don't understand that 2/3 of what they consume or produce is either imported ot exported. They don't understand that they eat grapes from Italy, tomatoes from Spain and cheese from the Netherland.

The new EU institutions expand to other spheres, beyond the Common Market but didn't modify its basis or its principles.

The "C€" label is not only an obligation for the manufacturers (in fact it's not an obligation at all, officialy, but it would be difficult to sell a product in industrial quantities without it and it affect end-user sales only) it's also a garantee that forbids any EU member state to ban the product or to have rules which would ban the use of this product and therefore make the sale of this product impossible. In other words an EU state cannot ban a product with a C€ label. This is an unprecedented protection for suppliers.

The € currency is not meant to forbid state to mint their own currency or to create monetary dependency or to erase national cultures. The € is a tool for international transactions. It makes it easier to know the price of a product, it saves exchange and banking costs. It's extremely useful also outside the euro zone, as a common currency.

If I want to buy something on the internet for example, I will definetly choose a sellers whose prices are in € over one whose prices are in £. And if the prices are in $, I understand that it's not european and that I will have to pay big custom fees. That's why the UK is stupid to ignore the €. What are they thinking: That their british pounds are something even remotely international?!

The € currency is also a formidable barrier against inflation, wild currency swings, and exchange rates uncertainties even with other currencies of the EU. When we know that a currency of the EU is pegged to the € it's always much safer. If you know the cost of something today, you are sure than in one year the cost will be only very silghtly different, if not unchanged.

If Ukraine is far from EU membership, it's not because of corruption, soviet culture or war, it's basicaly because their currency is a floating boat on huge waves.
I still remember when Italy had its lira... What a glory past it was! LOL S1
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#27
(11-14-2014, 06:44 PM)Fredledingue Wrote: The "Far Right" are the neo-Nazi or a vanilla version, wannabe politicaly correct, of neo-Nazism.
The more popular they are the less they are neo-nazi and the more they are anti-EU nationalist. The program of mainstream far-right parties can be reduced to anti-EU, anti-immigration and national pride.

Yeah, its just like I stated. The opposite of far left(Marxist Collectivism, is anarchism, which would logically be the REAL Far Right. In other words the opposite of Big Government, which is No Government. Does that make logical sense?

Not some Nazi, or neo-nazi horse manure. Nazis were National Socialists. Now Socialism is Left Wing, right? So if Socialism is Left Wing, then National Socialism would also be Socialism, Left Wing. Its not Far Right at all.

I strongly suggest you take the time and read this scholarly essay from Dr. John J. Ray. Its loaded with references and he tears all this "Far Right" crap that so many keep spouting. Its LEFT WING, not Far Right Wing. Anarchism is the opposite of Collectivism, just as right and left are also opposites.

Hitler Was A Socialist

Quote:National Socialism Rightist?

The word "Nazi" is a German abbreviation of the name of Hitler's political party -- the Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiter Partei. In English this translates to "The National Socialist German Worker's Party". So Hitler was a socialist and a champion of the workers -- or at least he identified himself as such and campaigned as such. The almost universal claim that Hitler's National Socialism was Right-wing has always therefore been a little strange.

How can any type of socialism be Rightist?

I will argue that this claim must in fact be one of old-time Communism's most successful "big lies" and that the perhaps surprising fact of the matter is that Hitler's National Socialism was Right-wing only in relation to Communism. I will submit the radically simple thesis that Hitler's appeal to Germans was much as the name of his political party would suggest -- a heady brew of rather extreme Leftism (socialism) combined with equally extreme nationalism -- with Hitler's obsession with the Jews being a relatively minor aspect of Nazism's popular appeal, as Dietrich (1988) shows.

Dr. Ray is correct. The only ones to the left of the National Socialists, were Communists. And that is what Stalin called Hitler. And because of this, everyone now uses the same language, which is outrageous. Hitler, and the Nazis(Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei) were Left Wing. Everyone should take the time and correct anyone using this incorrectly, just as I constantly correct anyone using the word "Liberal" as being Leftist. Its just the opposite.

What in hell is wrong with people these days? Gah
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#28
It's not me who invented these words. The "Far Right" is not "Right Wing" indeed and this is not very logical.

This is how I explain this historicaly:

Nazism was socialist but instead of nationalizing private industries and banning the use of private capital, they were using big industrial and financial groups (search "Worms Bank") for producing and financing materialy what they needed to achieve their ideological goals. With Nazism, the state planned the economy but let private capitalist group do what was planned and funded by the state.
Because they were working with big and very big capital, they were seen as ultra-capitalist by the communists while in fact the nazi used the industry much the same as the communists.

Today the Far Right has no program to repeat the same policy. It's not clear what their program is beside extended anti-immigration and radical protectionism. They are not specificaly talking about lowering taxes or being less collectivity-minded. The Flamish think that's what they will do, and that's why they are so popular there, but that remains to be seen.
Personaly I don't trust them much on that point.

If the actual Far Right program is very different from Hitler's Nazism in the 30 and 40's, they are still ideologicaly in direct lineage, with some natural evolutions.

They are opposed to the socialists, in the sens that they make political concurence for power and that they fought each others militarily in ww2

The Left Wing and the Right Wing also descend directly from pre-WW2 or earlier political formations. The Socialist and the Communists without interruption even.

In Belgium we do call the Right Wing "Liberals" as in your definition.
In that sens the Far Right is not Liberal at all.

In the 19th C., the political lanscape was divided by the Royalists (aka Legitimists) seen today as "The Right" and the Republicans (seen today as "The Left"). This is abuse of language because the Republicans were not realy proletarian. They were simply a non-inherited ruling class of wealthy bourgeois and intellectual from universities. Industrial magnates were at this time apolitical, in the sens that they would do business with both regimes.
By the end of the 19th C., the Republicans became divided between a left wing (the future socialists and communists) and the right wing (the future liberals) as Royalism died out as a political party and was definetly terminated as such at the end of WW1.
Royalism was either abolished or declared apolitical.

Nazism and Far Right were created between WW1 and WW2. There is no trace of Nazism or pre-nazism or fascism or anything similar before WW1, AFAIK. All the nationalists movement of the 19th C. were anti-Royalist, romantist, sometimes (but not exclusively) pro-left (not yet socialist) but they were never Nazis or Fascist because it was not a notion that existed at this time.

Current Nationalism is very different from the 19th C.'s nationalism because it has its roots in the Nazism and the Fascism of the 30's.
Whereas current Socialism can be traced back to Karl Marx and the current Right to even before.

Anti-EUism is essentialy Nationalist (from Nazi descent) but the movement may be in the process of splitting between the Xenophobists (an acceptable form of Nazism) and the Self-Isolasionists (UKIP).
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#29
Fred, it doesn't really matter what someone once started, unless it is accurate. FDR also started calling himself a Liberal in order to get elected to the WH, simply because his Progressive ideology would have doomed him. So he lied about it all, and the rest is history. The same thing with this "Far Right Wing" manure. And its just that: manure.

The truth is that Hitler also combined Fascist principles within his plans concerning business, because it was the next logical step in order to control and regulate them. He was still a National Socialist, which is LEFT WING. And all these modern nazis are also LEFT WING. And I don't give a 'you know what' others errantly call it. Its Left Wing. And I'm a Liberal, not one of those 'so called' bed wetting Leftist Progressives so many here in the US mistakenly call the Left Wing.

The problem is that so many are either ignorant, or intellectually lazy, and lack the balls, or gumption to go against the flow in order to be accurate. I'm not like that, and I'm just calling you out on it. That's all. They are not in any way "Far Right", so why call them that?
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#30
If main political parties get together, they may have their independance...
To watch...
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#31
May as well start a thread now, Spain may go the Geek way soon too....

100,000 Podemos Supporters March In Madrid As Pablo Iglesias Praises Six-Day Old Greek Government.
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#32
Don't we already have a thread on the PIGS already? Remember you got a bit concerned when I tried to create another thread that was only slightly different from your favorite thread. I believe it was the Ukraine thread, can't remember.
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#33
If you want to merge, do so.

Having a new thread or not is obviously a judgement call.... My sense is that PIGS thread was a general economics (bailout, austerity) situation whereas we now have different political movements emerging in different countries.... and we should group Greece and Spain together with the UK rather than with Ireland based on having a viable anti-EU political force or not.

And politics is different in each country.
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#34
Is UK also about to default? I'd not heard that one so far.
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#35
Eventually, surely, but the point I was making is that UK has UKIP -- which has its own thread. Movements in Greece and Spain are different but equally deserving. Ireland has no serious euroskeptic movement to the best of my knowledge.
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#36
(02-01-2015, 02:37 AM)mv Wrote: Eventually, surely, but the point I was making is that UK has UKIP -- which has its own thread. Movements in Greece and Spain are different but equally deserving. Ireland has no serious euroskeptic movement to the best of my knowledge.

Somehow I thought the Ukip/Nigel Farage thread was about just that, not other things unrelated to Ukip. Am I really in that bad for need of a vacation? Shock
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#37
(02-01-2015, 09:30 AM)John L Wrote:
(02-01-2015, 02:37 AM)mv Wrote: Eventually, surely, but the point I was making is that UK has UKIP -- which has its own thread. Movements in Greece and Spain are different but equally deserving. Ireland has no serious euroskeptic movement to the best of my knowledge.

Somehow I thought the Ukip/Nigel Farage thread was about just that, not other things unrelated to Ukip. Am I really in that bad for need of a vacation? Shock

Honestly, and not trying to pick up one more argument -- yes, you probably are.

There was no reason to have this discussion about threads, and I'm not sure at all of
1. what are you trying to achieve with it --- simply decide how you want threads to be, it is too unimportant for me to argue.
2. what are you trying to say most of the time... yeah, UKIP is about UKIP, which happens to be a center-right movement specific to the UK, whereas Podemos is extreme left, specific to Spain.

Tell you what: rename Catalonia thread to Spain, and Podemos would belong there just fine. or do what you want, just stop wasting my time with minute nonsense, pleeeeeease.
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#38
Greece is a really small state population wise, if Spain were to go the "screw the banks and their state supporters" route, it would have a more serious impact.
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#39
Palladin, The EU, the Markets and the banks have already been there. They won't let this happen.
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#40
Spain's troubles, Catalan independence, and insolvency, merged into one thread.
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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