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Middle East Meltdown, Pt. 3
Probably so do I. S6

But let's be careful with "publicizing".... this is PR. In reality, the total number of people killed by ISIS may not be all that much, probably less than total number of Iraqis killed by the US or Syrians killed by Assad. It is simply that their PR efforts aim at a certain audience.
Sodomia delenda est

(09-02-2014, 08:37 PM)Palladin Wrote: Fred,

No, I just think after a decade of the Shiites whacking the Sunnis, the Sunnis will lose some ambition fervor.
No way. The more they are suffering the genocide, the more they will want to genocide others. Even if that means being dead themselves.
These poeple prefer being dead than living in peace with the other tribe, even if that means being exterminated totaly. And that feeling is mutual.

(09-02-2014, 08:37 PM)Palladin Wrote: Most Muslims are not into the likes of ISIS, Fred. If they were, you and I would be dead, they're in all our nations. It's recent converts from the west that make up lots of ISIS,
Palladin, you told me yourself that muslims risen in the west are very different and I believe that too and that's why we are not treathened by them. As for western converts they all go to Syria. No Islamic attack on europe or the US in the last decade.
And they are not a lot. France has arrested 200 french jihadists this year. All of them planned to go to Syria. There are about 5 million muslims in France. Statisticaly it's very small even if only one on ten are arrested.

IS is international. They will take anyone ready to kill and die in the process if need be. But for some reasons they can operate or want to operate only in muslim regions.

(09-02-2014, 08:37 PM)Palladin Wrote: that thing is not indigenous.
It's 100% local, understand regional: It's Saudis, Qatar, and many other muslim nations organizing and supporting them. It's also Aphgan, Paki, Somali, Syrian, Iraqi and many other populations. These groups would not survive without an active support of the locals.
Maybe they don't agree with all the atrocities but they all agree that if it's for Islam these crimes can be forgiven.
All these populations are radical muslims and they all want a radical form of Islam.

Islamists are doing their atrocities in a modern way (decapitation on YouTube, Remote controled suicide bombing, drive by shooting on the back of a scooter, bullet spraying on praying worshippers etc) and not a single protest.
Show me a sunnite protesting a sunnite suicide bombing...

Only Egypt and some other parts of north Africa are against them. All others are not, or in a small minority.

If it wasn't for the 3 pious ones in the City of Gohomorra, I'd say let's nuke them because they are worse than the Nazi, the Soviet, Mao's Revolution and Imperial Japan combined.

mv Wrote:Not psychopaths, simply people with different religious views.
Please explain the difference between criminal psychopaths and people with different religious views...

(I mean poeple who hold a different view than those who believe that violence and murder is evil.)

Well, the locals will tire fairly fast of these guys. I agree with MV, they do represent Sunni Arab desires not to be ruled by Shia or we outsiders. However, the non local jihadis are already irking locals. These guys want to return to the past and the past is rougher than anyone is used to anymore, including Muslims.

I disagree about the average Sunni( or Shia to be honest). I really think most would be OK if outsiders were not trying to manage their regions and they were not in this intra Islamic struggle for local dominance which pretty much was under wraps until we removed Saddam.

The reason I disagree with your view is Christians have lived among them since Mohammad's day. That could not be possible if they were are as wild eyed as suggested.

One thing I think Obama grasps that most don't is he gets that some of this nutcase conduct is a reactionary trend because western powers for quite a time have been trying to manage Arab affairs. France and Britain, then the US.

Not until the US stomps all over Iraq, then helps arm anti Syria rebels, overthrows Libya's state do we finally see the reactionaries going after local Christians.

They ID them with the US.

Read about Palestinian Christians, they will tell you that they have become outcasts because of the US preference for Jewish rule over Arab rule in Palestine. The Muslim Arab sees the Christian Arab as siding with "Christian" USA, which is not Christian at all in conduct, the US is a secular interests state like all others.

It's a perception problem, truth is we'd kill all the Arab Christians if we needed them dead to advance our self interests. Wouldn't have a 2cd thought about it.

I think the French really did see this coming. They knew we yanks know nothing about foreign people and would create a reaction like this. Bull in a China shop.

Yes, the nutters need to be killed and they are awful, but, non Arabs and non Persians really should stop trying to manage affairs over there.
Palladin, I don't know if they will grtow tired of the Islamokooks, Radical Islam is what they want, why should they be tired of what they love?
I'm extremely pessimistic about these poeple. The IS didn't build their ideology out of nothing, they got this ideology because it was there. They took it from the poeple, not the other way.
We tried 13 years to get rid of the Taliban, without any visible effect. What do you want to do if the populations are Taliban themselves?
Th IS exists not because the US bombed the place and invaded 10 years ago, ok that made it easier but it's not the primordial reason, the primordial reason is that the populations are radical muslims.
Not only the fighters: All of them, elders, children, women... Women as much if not even more than men. Not all of them would fight or kill, but all of them (from 80 to 95% depending on the region) agree and even want the radical version of the Sharia to be applied strictly and without compromise.
They were oppressed under Ghaddafy, oppressed under Saddam, but none of them feel oppressed under the IS or the Ayathola's regime (in Iran maybe more feel oppressed but that remains a minority).

Radical Islam is nopt something that expands horizontaly: It's something that exists in the Populations and worsen verticaly.

Well, I'm against a war against them, except if they attack us. Not because of the christians therer (that aslo is a reason but not the real reason), but because to eradicate radical Islam you need to genocide nearly one billion people. No less.
We can kill their leaders one by one, with surgical strikes it will never die because the population bears it in their guts and in their soul. If we nuke all cities larger than 50K from Riahd to Kabul, we may have a chance but that's not something we should do obviousely.
So better do nothing, save for direct national security and the most urgent humanitarian causes.

This is Islam.

When are they getting out of it, I don't know.

The only thing we can do is to be more clever than them, educate ourself, think phiolosophy, be tolerant, be the opposite of Radical Islam and show them how we succeed and how they suck.
This way the smartest of them will understand what's good and what's bad, where it's better, where it's worse. And the gap in living standard between them and us will only start growing.

But for that we have to be clever and educated ourself. And this is far from obvious to them. Our actions in Iraq have not proved that we were.
Well, it appears I was right, the US armed ISIS. Question would be if we did it inadvertently or on purpose. I think on purpose.

This is the logic for overthrowing Khaddafi.

This is why Benghazi happened as I feared, we didn't protect the place because we assumed we were among friends. Error was, we were among "rented agents" who had a 9-11 ax to grind.
Nay, it is likely that most of US supplies to IS went through Syria under Qatar and Saudi patronage, some via Turkey, little came from Libya.
Sodomia delenda est

I think most their stuff came from Libya's armory, funded by Qatar, physically taken through Turkey with Turkey doing a ton of heavy lifting.

I think Turkey is knee deep in this ISIS septic tank as well, it's their proxy and our's apparently. That's how the US always has operated since 1946, when we arm someone we don't want it known, it is always with USSR weaponry.

No better thing than to steal Khaddafi's armory with brainless Americans buying Clinton's "human rights" intervention stupidity, turn Libya's state over to jihadists and assist them to take Syria and Iraq.

Every jihadi so far I have read of that has spoken came into Syria via Turkey, not Saudi land.

Our security apparatus has it's own logic. What it is I do not know.
I agree with mv. The US thought they were helping the good guys by sending, selling, or simply leaving weapons and military vehicles there, no matter who they are. But they didn't know that there is NO good guys in the ME. Give it to one group and they will be use to genocide the other. At best to oppress the others into slavery.
Kurds better? Better than IS and Iran, certainly. But ask Kamill what he thinks about them... He wouldn't give them all US army surplus neither.
I don't disagree entirely, we did try to arm some non ISIS Syrians with US stuff,but, can the US know who is who, OR, is any Sunni not a jihadist by now in Syria? McCain got filmed with a known jihadist earlier for example. I saw a video of a TOW rocket with some of the Syrians. Obviously Obama sent that to Syria.

This article doesn't document it, but, the entire Benghazi thing makes 0 logic unless we were arranging arms transfers somewhere out of Libya. Probably 95% of every ISIS arm is an old Soviet type of weapon.

Beyond raids on Syria's depots, they had to come from Libya unless Russia armed ISIS and I don't think Russia did. There are a TON of old Soviet arms being used by ISIS, the American stuff isn't making the difference and isn't that good anyway if you aren't good at maintenance.

I'd way prefer an AK myself if I were a maurader like these jihadis are.
The Boy and his Brain Trust:

He wants to destabilize Syria some more by training rebels and equipping them while bombing ISIS. Of course, I am sure the Syrian gov't is being ignored even though they offered access to their airspace for US strikes.

I don't think they even know what they are doing anymore.
Quote:I don't think they even know what they are doing anymore.

And when was the last time they knew? Degenerates.

BTW, today, 9/11, is a significant date: birthday of Assad (born 1965). And of course, of the Junior's destruction of the WTC too.
Sodomia delenda est

Maybe Turkey will help the attack on Syria, the Germans and Brits won't and thank God for both of these states right now. The foreign policy of the USA is so morally sick I want to vomit.

EDIT:Turkey says it won't alllow their bases to be used:

First empower the jihad, then resist the jihad, all the while overthrowing various state leadership that doesn't threaten anything BUT our dictatorial authority in a region 5000 miles from here.

If Assad simply would kiss our as.s, we'd send him the most recent hardware. I for one hope Germany and the UK tell Obama neither will they bomb inside Iraq if that frees up US aircraft to violate Syria's sovereignty further.

Next URL is a Dawn article I think is accurate. Couple of things stand out to me in it.

A)Our anti Assad view is serving Israel's desires as well as Sunni Arab desires and it has empowered ISIS. Neither Jews nor Arabs ruling Palestine or Sunni Arabs getting their way over Shia Muslims have anything to do with USA independence or freedom and as such, are unworthy goals for us killing people over, violating state sovereignty, etc.

B) We only got really riled up after 2 yanks got murdered, we were fine watching a throng of Arabs being persecuted to hell due to our combination of arrogance& stupidity( this assumes we are not pushing ISIS purposefully). Not surprising, but, next time we preach to others how good we are and how bad they are, keep in mind the facts.
Regarding the Dawn article: correct overall, wrong in details. For instance, it sounds like IS descends from Nusra -- not true.

Do you know which movie he is talking about? Did I miss something? (I have not been to a movie theater in 10+ years)

Quote:It is a typical summer flick, but it holds a great lesson for the global power politics. Hercules, released earlier in the summer, shows how the son of Zeus fights against tyrants only to realise later that he has been tricked into fighting against the good guys.
Sodomia delenda est

He meant the flick, "Hercules".

Concur, he was wrong on the continuity of Nusra and ISIS. I can't make up my mind anymore. We caused this entire problem, maybe we ought to just go away and shut up. Seems like Germans and Brits think so.
Not good enough, Sodomia is the cause of nearly all problems in the world, it must go the Dodo way.

Thanks for the link, I'll watch it.
Sodomia delenda est

This seems accurate enough. The true believers, the psychopaths and then the Sunnis who are getting back at the Shia.

The largest group by far are the non nut Sunnis.

I say leave this bunch to themselves, the regular Sunni will tire of them soon enough. Otherwise, we'll end up making things worse long term as we already have and I suspect we'll use ISIS as an exuse to attack Syria's government.
Quote:I say leave this bunch to themselves, the regular Sunni will tire of them soon enough

Absolutely. US has no right to deny the people their history, their right to find their way.

But is the US capable of not fvcking up other peoples life? -- no.

As for people in ISIS... some good looking too.... S13
Sodomia delenda est

I'd let them go myself. No return though.
I agree with both of you: Not only the US and the West will mess up royaly as usual, but even if for once we do it right, strike the right targets, arm the right group, it will never stop the genocides and the desire of these poeple to experience the most radical an inhumane forms of Islam. Thinking that we can save muslims from muslims is stupid.

If Turkey don't want us to use their air bases to bomb the Jihadists, it's a failure already. Better bomb Ankara and Riyahd immediately, it will be more effective.

Better yet, invade the city of Mecca and ban Islam totaly there. Outlaw it. Force poeple to do the opposite of Islam like forcing poeple into extra marital sex, give women several husbands, gay rights, teach that Muhamad was a pedophile, burn Qurans in front of the Qaaba etc... And watch their reaction.
OK... here is the key question: it became axiomatic that every time the US interferes in another country it results in a new movement there, uglier than anything seen before.

For instance, removing Saddam created IS ... and IS is way uglier than Saddam.

If Sodomia managed to remove IS, how would the new monster look like?

(My imagination fails me S4 ).
Sodomia delenda est

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