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The Great War
#1
It's been 100 years since the old order of Europe was plunged into something from which it would never recover.

WW1 in pictures: http://www.theatlantic.com/static/infocus/wwi/

1960s BBC Series "The Great War", free from PC bullshit and with excellent, in depth and thorough historical review; plenty of interviews with vets on all sides of the conflict. The whole series is on this youtube channel:


WW1 is one of my favorite topics in history, along with the embers and fires of the smaller wars that happened immediately afterward.
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#2
That war might have spawned more than just Hitler's Germany. We can't know, but, it could have spawned Stalin's USSR as well.
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#3
I am mostly concerned with the individual human experience of the war as opposed to the grand stratagems or other aspects of history. I won't guess what might or might not have happened, but I will say that the horrors of the individual participants experience were sufficient enough to alter human concepts of warfare and politics.
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#4
(06-12-2014, 06:30 PM)Gunnen4u Wrote: I am mostly concerned with the individual human experience of the war as opposed to the grand stratagems or other aspects of history. I won't guess what might or might not have happened, but I will say that the horrors of the individual participants experience were sufficient enough to alter human concepts of warfare and politics.

Interesting focus. How do you differentiate this particular war with all the others in history? I think it's possible to feel the same way about the Hundred Years War, the Crusades, The Revolutionary War, or the Civil War. ...Each in different ways, of course.
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#5
Well, WWI was trench warfare and there were 9 million dead. The life of a soldier had to be disgusting beyiond our imagination. Never had a war like that before or since.
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#6
The first thing I think about, when I think WWI, is not chemical warfare, or 19th century mentality with a 20th century war, or a host of other things. I always think of one thing first. I think of the little play-pretty that Hiram Maxim invented. With the exception of possibly artillery, it killed more people in that war than anything else, and ended an era.

And he claimed he invented it so as to make warfare so hideous that there would be no more wars. Yeah, right on Sir Hiram.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#7
And speaking of The Great War, there is now a computer game coming out, based on this very subject. And I hear it is one of the top games at E3 this year. Keep an eye out and perhaps give it a try. S5



___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#8
(06-12-2014, 10:07 PM)John L Wrote: ...he claimed he invented it so as to make warfare so hideous that there would be no more wars. Yeah, right on Sir Hiram.

That's funny... Gattling created his gun with the hopes that it would reduce the size of armies and so reduce the number of deaths by combat and disease, and to show how futile war is.

Must be something in the water. Why else did Nobel start his Peace Prize?
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#9
(06-17-2014, 09:21 PM)WmLambert Wrote:
(06-12-2014, 10:07 PM)John L Wrote: ...he claimed he invented it so as to make warfare so hideous that there would be no more wars. Yeah, right on Sir Hiram.

That's funny... Gattling created his gun with the hopes that it would reduce the size of armies and so reduce the number of deaths by combat and disease, and to show how futile war is.

Must be something in the water. Why else did Nobel start his Peace Prize?

No, its a pathology called "Driving While Civilian". All they ever had to do was just talk to some NCOs who had met the elephant, and they would have been set straight, instead of all this utopian mentality.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#10
After rewatching this series, I have decided that the Germans should have won WW1.
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#11
But of course, the world would have been a better place.
Sodomia delenda est

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#12
Either side winning hands down was going to be bad, IMO.

Each side just being exhausted and coming to their senses would have helped, IMO.
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#13
Don't be so sure: it is the war exhaustion that led to civil war in Russia and near civil war in Germany and all the consequences.

OTOH, a clean German victory would have lead us to a world of democracy, without characters like FDR, Hitler or Churchill ever emerging.
Sodomia delenda est

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#14
This entire future fiction result is highly questionable. But don't forget the Franco-Prussian War(1870-1871). The French lost horribly and never forgot, nor forgave, Prussia. This hatred was still hot by 1914, and was the main reason for the "tit for tat" reparations game. "Hell hath no fury like a woman(or Frenchman) scorned.

Had Germany won WWI, the hatred and "GetEvenWithEm" would have been so great the degree of instability would have been almost unmanageable. As it was, even Wilson was unable to keep the French from doing what they did at the Treaty of Versailles.

From Britannica and Wikipedia:

Quote: Most importantly, Germany’s annexation of Alsace-Lorraine aroused a deep longing for revenge in the French people. The years from 1871 to 1914 were marked by an extremely unstable peace, since France’s determination to recover Alsace-Lorraine and Germany’s mounting imperialist ambitions kept the two nations constantly poised for conflict. Their mutual animosity proved to be the driving force behind the prolonged slaughter on the Western Front in World War I.

Quote:The desire for revenge (esprit de revanche) against Germany, particularly for the recovery of the "lost provinces" of Alsace and Lorraine (whose importance was summed up by the French politician Léon Gambetta in the phrase: "Never speak of them; never forget them!") remained strong in France over the next 50 years and was the key French war aim in World War I. The Allied victory saw France regain Alsace-Lorraine and briefly resume its old position as the leading land power on the European continent. France was the leading proponent of harsh peace terms against Germany at the Paris Peace Conference.

If the US hadn't reluctantly been forced to step in, and insert some degree of reason, this would still be going gangbusters. Study your history!
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#15
I have the same confidence in German humans I do in all humans, flawed. No one is ever going to lead the existing zeitgeist into anything unselfish ever, that's as delusional of a dream as American exceptionalism is.

I will agree the chaos did lead probably to 1917 in Moscow, but, the post war allied view helped with Hitler most folks think.

John's "the US stepped in and inserted a degree of reason" is typical American centric nonsense . The view that Europeans were not been capable in 1945 of learning from the most recent past and adjusting their conduct seems to be a low view of Europeans.

My guess is in fact the opposite, because Europeans have such a high view of themselves up until 1945 they were all thinking along the lines of their various exceptionalisms. The continent is a place of much global production of all sorts of things and ideas, many really good, it took the 20th century to stop their arrogance.

I just pray we Americans can stop with John's view before many millions have to become fertilizer for someone's flowers.
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#16
(01-22-2015, 12:56 PM)Palladin Wrote: John's "the US stepped in and inserted a degree of reason" is typical American centric nonsense . The view that Europeans were not been capable in 1945 of learning from the most recent past and adjusting their conduct seems to be a low view of Europeans.

Why don't you try studying your history for a change. The fact is that one of the only good things Wilson did was to keep the US out of war for as long as possible, and lastly attempt to halt the reparations movement from France.

Had the US not declared war over the Lusitania incident, he would have been toast historically. He had no choice on that. You need to seriously do more reading before you give a carte blanche "I Hate The US", "We're absolutely the World's Worst" crap. I don't know where you manage to get all this. Hurry up and retire from ORNL, and then leave this G-d Forsaken cesspool, why don't you.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#17
The solo reason Wilson waited with entering the war was to ensure that both sides suffered as much damage first... the latecomer gets the spoils... and this is what happened.

And given the general pattern of US manufacturing "incidents" as pretext for wars one should consider the strong possibility that Lusitania was one too.
Sodomia delenda est

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#18
Quote:I have the same confidence in German humans I do in all humans, flawed. No one is ever going to lead the existing zeitgeist into anything unselfish ever, that's as delusional of a dream as American exceptionalism is.

Nobody is perfect, but consider two things: 1. Germany had a functioning democracy in 1914, unlike its opponents. 2. Germany was almost not involved in colonialism unlike the Entente forces.

Quote:I will agree the chaos did lead probably to 1917 in Moscow, but, the post war allied view helped with Hitler most folks think.

Read on German history, it is quite interesting, and you will see the continuity from 1918 to 1933. Check on 1918 specifically, things like Spartak or the Bavarian Republic.

Quote:John's "the US stepped in and inserted a degree of reason" is typical American centric nonsense

obviously, but it works on zombies perfectly.

Quote:I just pray we Americans can stop with John's view before many millions have to become fertilizer for someone's flowers.

Good for you.... I don't see any hope unless the US is dispatched quickly. Incurable.
Sodomia delenda est

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#19
OK John. I said above "in 1945". You responded with some stuff about Woodrow Wilson.

The US had no influence in the post WWI efforts, agreed? So, the US did not step in then and "assert some degree of reason".

The assumption here was you meant in 1945.

My response is the Europeans had done the suffering, they had learned from both WWI, post war WWI and Hitler and have brains, so they did not need the US to "assert some degree of reason". That was my point in replying.

I don't give a damn about any secular state at all. I don't think the US is worse than Uruguay or Panama. You just cannot get through your head that I do not see through your nationalism prism.

All states are literal shit, how is that? I do not fit into your "all ideas are within the lenses of secular nationalism" thinking. I already told MV, if any state had our ability, they'd be "disgusting" bastards.

It's still true that the USA's contribution in post WWI was nothing, post war WWII was not needed to "assert some degree of reason". The Euros would have treated post WWII Germany the same, John, they can learn, just like we can. We are not their moral or intellectual superiors.

Our post WWII role was needed to keep Stalin away from Normandy, nothing else.
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#20
I am more looking at the issue from the standpoint of the effect on Western Civ. It suffered a traumatizing blow and the old order of the West was destroyed, leading ultimately to the mess and absurdity we have now. By having a traditionalist Germany winning as the premier power in continental Europe, Western Civ would have taken a different course from the one we are on now.
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