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economic collapse: How Will It Affect Us?
#21
(05-20-2014, 09:09 PM)John L Wrote: What I was referring to was monetary resources. Its a thing called Debt! And that is definitely resources of credit that we are handing to our children and grandchildren. You knew what I meant Jack. S14

I disagree in definitions and in significance. Our "monetary resources" are denominated in 'dollars' that can be created or destroyed via 'sovereign' means with the press of a button or the addition of zeros to some arbitrary figure. A dollar is worth what our government 'says' a dollar is worth. 'Real' resources aren't based on abstract constructs. It's not 'genuine' squandering John. The only thing close to being 'real' is the power required to maintain the illusion. The threat of prison or seizure your 'real' property ... home, car, actual stuff if you don't buy into the game by paying your taxes ... or forcing all your transactions through some conduit of the Federal Reserve is real enough ... but the institution it supports? ... it's basically a con job. If money was 'real' it's 'value' would be fairly static over time. It has zero intrinsic value, so how can you possibly measure the actual magnitude of debt or credit or "the monetary base" with a magic ruler that expands or contracts on a whim? These aren't 'real' resources ... they are mirages designed to keep people dutifully stumbling through the desert in one particular direction. A 'collapse' would imply that everybody quits believing in the tooth fairy all at the same time ... and that isn't likely to happen, because there are way to many that are completely addicted to the sugar.

Government debt is a good starting point in discussing the reforms our government desperately needs. But it's mostly a rhetorical mechanism. The real problem is the systematic illusion itself ... and the way we assign 'value' both literally and figuratively and that's a discussion that no politician really wants to have .... The method and currency we use to assign the 'value' of actual resources needs to be pegged to something real. Because right now it's pegged to nothing.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#22
I agree almost totally with John on this, but need to add a caveat I learned from former University of Michigan Professor Paul W. McCracken, and Chief Economic adviser for Eisenhower, Nixon, and Ford.

The Debt is huge, but is complicated for much of it being owed to itself. If it causes failures, those holding the means to kill it would themselves be hurt. It's hard to quantify why stupid procedures work simply because the alternative is far worse.

In Star Trek's The Voyage Home, Kirk is bemused that food costs money. Dr. Gillian Taylor: "Don't tell me you don't use money in the 23rd Century." Kirk: "Well, we don't." In the TV series "Revolution" (after the death of electricity and world-wide Armageddon), everyone seems to have a bag full of three or four karat diamonds to use as money. IOW: money is based on stuff, and what that stuff may be is anyone's guess. As long as the US has more natural resources than others in the world, money is not based on gold or precious metals as collateral - but on the country, itself.

IOOW: the country may fail, and then the monetary system will reflect that. I don't think it can go the other way. It behooves us to fix the country before it fails. If that happens, everything fails.
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#23
(05-21-2014, 03:37 PM)WmLambert Wrote: The Debt is huge, but is complicated for much of it being owed to itself. If it causes failures, those holding the means to kill it would themselves be hurt. It's hard to quantify why stupid procedures work simply because the alternative is far worse.

There!! There you go!! Everybody except for a sovereign entity DOES NOT have the means to 'kill' our debts. What debt means to us does not mean the same as what it means to Tim Geithner ... or Bernanke or Yellen .. or Lew. What does 'debt' mean to these folks? Do you know? Do they know? Are you really certain these folks really realize what happens when you throw water on a grease fire?

(05-21-2014, 03:37 PM)WmLambert Wrote: In Star Trek's The Voyage Home, Kirk is bemused that food costs money. Dr. Gillian Taylor: "Don't tell me you don't use money in the 23rd Century." Kirk: "Well, we don't." In the TV series "Revolution" (after the death of electricity and world-wide Armageddon), everyone seems to have a bag full of three or four karat diamonds to use as money. IOW: money is based on stuff, and what that stuff may be is anyone's guess. As long as the US has more natural resources than others in the world, money is not based on gold or precious metals as collateral - but on the country, itself.

People 'traded' things on Star Trek ... all the time ... particularly 'illegal' things like "Romulan Ale" ... how the hell do you 'trade' across borders .. let alone galaxies without money or something resembling it (gold pressed latinum?)? Something pegged to actual value ... not just promises. Is that what we are headed for? ... all 'free' enterprise goes under the table? Governments don't really realize this, but black markets are one of the primary marker elements for a failed government. This was Gene Roddenberry's bill board for utopia ... they don't exist. Money ... up until 1913 was based on stuff ... since then? It's based on conjecture. That's a problem. When people lose faith in the country, it's currency becomes shit. Our resources are still in the ground. That's good and bad. It's good because they can't be 'squandered' ... it's bad because after we crumble (optimist in me says IF we crumble) somebody else will dig them up and enrich themselves.

(05-21-2014, 03:37 PM)WmLambert Wrote: IOOW: the country may fail, and then the monetary system will reflect that. I don't think it can go the other way. It behooves us to fix the country before it fails. If that happens, everything fails.

Failure reflects failure. And yes, it would be very, very good to fix it ... and soon. But what we would be fixing wouldn't be 'debt' per se ... it would be our 'values' system ... both internal and external. It will be a long protracted contentious negotiation, but if it doesn't occur we'll end up in history's crapper. Again, not in collapse but a long, long slide down a gooey slippery slope ... into the same sort of mud that Nigeria or any other shit hole is bogged down in ... and did I mention that Nigeria has 'resources' too? So when it comes down to it, really ... what the fuck is the difference?
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#24
(05-20-2014, 10:53 AM)John L Wrote: Patrick, you have a government related job at ORNL, which you will not lose when the collapse occurs. Good for you. But I don't, and the overwhelming majority of Americans don't either.

And even if we miraculously don't collapse, we will slowly stagnate, because of our terrible debt to income relationship. I don't care what the Keynesians tell us. We cannot continue to borrow and spend like there is no tomorrow. This is Common Sense 101.

Tell you what. If this does occur, I want you to come here and tell me that you were wrong. And crazy as I am, I was right, ok? The only problem is that I won't be laughing along with you.


But we can grow if we spend on the right areas AND tax AND put a stricter Anti-Trust law into effect. Open competition and high taxes CREATE jobs. The rich, in their desire to have money, have traditionally ONLY created jobs when their taxes were HIGH and they had competition in the market place.
"I was recently on a tour of Latin America, and the only regret I have was that I didn't study Latin harder in school so I could converse with those people." —Dan Quayle
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#25
(05-22-2014, 01:22 PM)Liberal Leaning Wrote: But we can grow if we spend on the right areas AND tax AND put a stricter Anti-Trust law into effect. Open competition and high taxes CREATE jobs. The rich, in their desire to have money, have traditionally ONLY created jobs when their taxes were HIGH and they had competition in the market place.


What I find so intriguing "LL" is how you(second person plural) on the left look at businesses and corporations as the ultimate evil, in the Corporatism Equation. To you all, they are the ultimate EVIL, able to leap tall buildings, stop trains, and take food out of baby's mouths.

Yet you all seem to have this love affair with the Political Class, and the State, to such an extent that they are able to "Hear no Evil, See no Evil, and Do no Evil". You all look upon them as the Real victims of greedy corporations doing the ultimate evil.

However, which of the two sides in the equation makes the laws? Which of the two sides can force the other to conform to its dictates? Which of the two sides has the most incentive to force the public to follow their desires?

Do I need to go on? And why is this? Well, I will tell you why you all are so unable to use your common sense and apply it to reason. It is because you possess so little of it. True, you may be eaten up with intelligence, but when it comes to adult reason, common sense, or wisdom, you are still little children inhabiting an adult's body. You never grew up intellectually.

And Pat Sayek has been right all along. You are all living in a Kindergarden of Eden, and unable to apply common sense to what makes us humans and why we do the things we do. Instead of living in the "Real World, you all live in this Utopian Universe where everything you believe is based upon the very things you were taught as a six year old in first grade. And where you were supposed to finally reach an age of maturity, along with time, you(second person plural) are still caught up in this perfect utopian fairyland that simply doesn't work in any practical sense. That is why Collectivism almost always leads to turmoil, strife, servitude, and finally needless deaths to millions, as it did this last century. And you are so intent on this that you are unable to see the real villains in all of this: the State, and politicians. What the hell's the matter with you people? When are you all finally going to grow up and act your age? Don't you think its time you actually looked at things with a new perspective?

Tell me "LL", what are the Evil corporations able to do to you that will make you buy their products, have no choice over others on the market? How are they able to take your hard earned monies, without you being able to do otherwise? You people need to seriously GROW UP for G-d's Sake! For every one thing an evil corporation is able to do to people, politicians and the State, are more than willing do countless more things to the citizenry than any corporation ever thought, or tried, to do. Why can't you see this?

And higher taxes DO NOT create more jobs. They kill jobs, it makes the final of costs of something more expensive, and you thus get less of it. What's wrong with you people. Grow Up, and start applying some common sense, for once in your life.

I'll tell you something else. You are not Liberal Leaning. As a true Liberal, I know better. You are a Progressive at the very least, and most likely a hard core Socialist. You need to have your 'handle' changed to show some reality there as well.
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#26
The only rationalization for anti-corporatism is the theory of monopoly, and that evil big business will destroy all competition so there is nothing to replace them. In the real world, that only happens if government can successfully subsidize their pet companies - and guess what? They have never been successful doing that.
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#27
William,

Good grief ! " In the real world, that only happens if government can successfully subsidize their pet companies - and guess what? They have never been successful doing that".



That's all Germany and Italy did in the 30s and 40s and it's what the US is about now, picking favorites and subsidizing them.

ObamaCare is about favoring an entire industry at the expense of the nation! Would you please try reading Ezekiel Emmanuel's book on what OC is about??? It isn't about socialism, it's about that industry buying the US state as it's protector and benefactor.

Refusal to build the Canada pipeline is based on Burlington Northern's profit margins, Buffet is paying off Obama on that pipeline refusal.

I swear William, you sound like a 78 RPM record to me, I can't speak for others here. The USA is a perfect example of pay to play state/corporate nexus right now and it will get worse as the level of "offerings" are irresistible.
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#28
You misunderstand. They are certainly pushing crony Capitalism and subsidizing. The point is that it doesn't work.

I said they have never been successful at doing that, and that is an accurate statement. ...Yes, Obama is picking and choosing winners - and his picks are losing anyway. ...Yes, he's throwing money at CEOs who contributes to his fundraising. ...But this has been tried before, and it has never worked.

You are correct in comparing Obama to what Germany and Italy did in the 30s and 40s. They didn't work either. The Fascist press was under the control of Mussolini and they printed story after story of how it was hard to control industry - but the trains were running on time. The real story was that industry was NOT working, and the trains were also NOT running on time. The people may have believed the newspapers at first - but after personally experiencing what was happening, they learned the truth. It was Mussolini's own people who did him in, neh?
Command economies are best illustrated with the true example of the shoe industry under Communism. Hand-picked managers had goals to reach by a certain date - so made millions of baby shoes instead of full-sized adult shoes. When the scam was uncovered, the materials were used up on the glut of baby shoes and nothing was left to make adult shoes.

The time before the house of cards collapsed back then is also similar to today. Obama is floundering under so many scandals that it is impossible for him to reach equilibrium. The only agenda is to confuse and confound - not to take responsibility and fix anything.

Mussolini had a controlled media. Obama also has a pet media that is actually hurting him by refusing to report the trains are not running on time. When the people learn the hard way, we should remember how his people hanged El Duce upside down in the Milan Square, Piazzale Loreto. Lies have no legacy.
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#29
Some great economic news, finally: U.S. economy shrank at 1% annual pace in 1Q.
Sodomia delenda est

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#30
(05-29-2014, 10:56 AM)mv Wrote: Some great economic news, finally: U.S. economy shrank at 1% annual pace in 1Q.

Yeah, no matter how much 'fudging' MacDaddy may be practicing, eventually there is not enough 'fudging' out there to mask the truth, is there? Clearly we have been in a recession for some time, so by the time this regime finally admits it, we will already be into a robust depression.

And lets not overlook the one basic principle of the Left, of which MacDaddy depends: "The End Justifies The Means".

Quote:"The principle that the end justifies the means is in individualist ethics regarded as the denial of all morals. In collectivist ethics it becomes necessarily the supreme rule; there is literally nothing which the consistent collectivist must not be prepared to do if it serves 'the good of the whole,' because the 'good of the whole' is to him the only criterion of what ought to be done. ...[C]ollectivist ethics... knows no other limit than that set by expediency—the suitability of the particular act for the end in view."-Friedrich von Hayek [The Road To Serfdom pps.166-167]

Ain't Collectivism/Socialism just peachy?
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#31
Stock market is up.... Government intervention yet again?
Sodomia delenda est

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#32
Can't prove anything with the stock market. The Dow is made of successful companies. Any companies that don't do so well are relegated out of the Dow and replaced by other companies doing better.

There are many metrics that can be used to measure the economy. Pet economists pick and choose what makes their patron look the best.
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#33
William,

It works for the insiders. They run the show, so I don't see any other alternative but more pay to play at higher and higher levels of pay.
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#34
This also of note: U.S. economy shrinks, but it's not a big deal. Obviously unknown to CNN is that the numbers are cooked to look better than normal. MacDaddy also believes that the end justifies the means. I wonder why CNN is not able to realize all this?

Nick Nolte, at Breitbart, has no trouble getting it.

Quote:The media's lack of empathy for the tens of millions of Americans struggling under Obama's dismal economic policies is only adding to that struggle. Because the media keeps covering and happy talking for him, Obama and Democrats feel no pressure to fix his policies.
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Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#35
And speaking of CNN and an Economic Collapse, there is this: CNN Source: 'No One Wants to Come' Work Here.

Quote:"We can’t find talent who wants to come to CNN. No one wants to come because we scrap things after a year," the source told the Post. "Every talent agency we contact can’t get us anyone... Even talent from larger local markets refuse to come here, because they are afraid.”
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
Hillary Clinton Is Like Herpes, "She Wont Go Away" - Anna Paulina
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#36
Don't know about the believability of that one, John.

The new paradigm for careers these days is horizontal movement - not vertical. No reason why an unknown would not move to a higher strata position (even at CNN) in order to attract a better job up the road.

I think no one wants to come to CNN for other reasons than longevity. There must be a stigma attached to the network that persuades local talent to stay away - a stigma that transcends working for a brand name company as a stepping-stone to other offers.
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#37
If there is a collapse, how will it reshape American society? what should I, as an individual, do to survive?
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#38
Learn Chinese. S6
Sodomia delenda est

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#39
(06-01-2014, 09:43 PM)Anonymous24 Wrote: ... what should I, as an individual, do to survive?

1. Have food and watered stored.
2. Know how to grow food and how to treat water to make it potable.
3. Have the means to defend your food, water ... and some form of shelter.
4. Determine if you have the will to avoid having items in 3 above forcibly taken.
5. If answer #4 is NO ... then quit worrying about it.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#40
Prepare to kill people.
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