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Time for a referendum in Iraq
#1
The main reason for staying in Iraq, so we are now being told by Bush, Blair et al. is to establish 'democracy' there. I have deep reservations as to the compatibility of democracy and Islam, but taking the sentiment at face value, I suggest a referendum of Iraqis either at the time of the next election, or before, if possible.

Iraqis would be asked straightforward questions such as do you want US and British troops to leave immediately, within a year, when the Iraqi government decides is fit etc. ?

The result of the referendum would decide the policy when to leave. If the Iraqis want US and Brit troops to go, then they boogie off and leave the Iraqis to deal with the mess. If the Iraqis say 'stay, please stay' then end of story for the critics of troop presence there and more cooperation demanded from the 'International Community', esp. from Muslim countries, to help police and rebuild Iraq.

The idea is very simple and I am going to suggest it to my local Member of Parliament (here in the UK, Palladin's beloved ally ))
The last time I wrote to my MP on the subject of Mohammedanism was to complain about the Islamists in Finsbury Park mosque in London. A few months later they were ejected and the mosque closed.

That's what I call democracy wink
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#2
The Observer Wrote:The main reason for staying in Iraq, so we are now being told by Bush, Blair et al. is to establish 'democracy' there. I have deep reservations as to the compatibility of democracy and Islam, but taking the sentiment at face value, I suggest a referendum of Iraqis either at the time of the next election, or before, if possible.

Iraqis would be asked straightforward questions such as: do you want US and British troops to leave immediately, within a year, when the Iraqi government decides is fit etc. ?

The result of the referendum would decide the policy when to leave. If the Iraqis want US and Brit troops to go, then they boogie off and leave the Iraqis to deal with the mess. If the Iraqis say 'stay, please stay' then end of story for the critics of troop presence there and more cooperation demanded from the 'International Community', esp. from Muslim countries, to help police and rebuild Iraq.

The idea is very simple and I am going to suggest it to my local Member of Parliament (here in the UK, Palladin's beloved ally S1)
The last time I wrote to my MP on the subject of Mohammedanism was to complain about the Islamists in Finsbury Park mosque in London. A few months later they were ejected and the mosque closed.

That's what I call democracy Wink1

On the face, seems entirely reasonable and a good solution. Of course, we face the possibility that if the Iraqi's do not want us, which I doubt, and we leave prematurely our absence will embolden terrorists/war lords(is that what they are called?) to create a civil war and a safe haven for terrorists to continue attacks upon the civilized world.

What stake in our safety do we hold now after all the victories we've had in destroying the haven of Iraq for AQ (despite what the MSM has tried to avoid) and how close we are to reaching our objective of crippling the terroists' hold on Iraq?

I hope you all have run-on sentences in England, thus helping you decipher mine. S1
Solo~

When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty. --Thomas Jefferson
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#3
Solo

1) Iraq should not be used as a place to smash AQ or anybody else if Iraqis don’t want us there.
2) There appears to be an ‘unholy alliance’ of Iraqi insurgents and foreign Islamists, united by the presence of foreign troops on Iraqi soil. Remove the foreign troops and would the Iraqi insurgents still want links with the foreign Islamists? – maybe to fight the Shias who would call on Iran to bolster their cause.
3) I think it’s decision time for the Iraqis either they want the western inspired model of governance or they don’t. If they don’t - abandon Iraq to Mohammedanism. Muslims of different branches hate each other more than they hate non-Muslims if you keep out of ‘their ’lands.
4) I am not convinced the West is any safer by US/Brit presence in Iraq. The dangers to the West already exist within Western societies Iraq inflames these people. The big danger to the West is not from people blowing themselves up etc. The London bombings, horrible as they were, are pretty much a daily reality in Iraq. The big danger is nuclear terrorism. Suitcase nukes etc are apparently available on the black-market and AQ types don’t need Iraq as a ‘safe-haven’ to hatch and execute a nuclear plot.
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#4
It would be a referendum that could get Americans out of Iraq prematurely which would lead to terrorists crushing an Iraqi democracy. So while the referendum could be democratic its results could lead to democracy its self being destroyed afterwards so tactically it would be a mistake if democracy is whats being fought for.

With that being said Iraqis want the American's out when they can provide their own security. Thus likely an immediate withdrawal from Iraq would be voted against by the Iraqis. Those few who would vote for it are misguided by the idea terrorists are only their to kill Americans so they believe if we leave the terrorists will have no reason to stay. However the terrorists have many reasons to stay and none to leave. They want to stay to create an islamic totalitarian terrorist state.
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#5
Why is not electing a government a referendum in and of itself?

We had a clear choice in 2004,win this war or concede Iraq to the enemy. It WAS a referendum only on that question,2004 was about nada else,IMO.

Doesn't it stand to REASON that the question of when we tell the Americans to exit is among the foremost questions on the mind of 100% of Iraqis?

Having said this,I have NO problem with them adding a referendum question as follows

"A)Do you prefer the government order the foreign troops OUT immediately or B)do you prefer allowing the government to decide when this should occur"?

I would enjoy that because if they voted for B we could be done with such nonsense,elected governments do exactly what their voters want. If most wanted us out after the first vote,we would have been asked to leave.

I agree that killing jihadists in Iraq is not a right of ours SO LONG as Iraq does it in lieu of us,but if they did not,we would have full rights to do it as we would in the UK if you people protected them. My view is they will do it,in fact,I would guess there are no more determined anti jihadists on earth than Iraqi Muslims.
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#6
I read "observer's" profile... Where in the heck is sCATLAND?

...not on my world atlas.

...in my dictionary...scat has three definitions... lol
Bean
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#7
I have five in mine... S2
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#8
Ken,

Observer is a good Scottish gentleman. I wish he posted more. He's probably what we would call a US liberal,but he is more sensible than most the European posters I read. Met him over at Kamil's old board.
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#9
Ho! The Observer, there have been several recent public opinion polls taken in Iraq that are close to what you suggested.

Referendums of this nature are tricky. Do you want to write the exact words in Farsi, Urdu, and the other Arabic languages to make sure the questions asked aren't self-fulfilling preachments?

To me, I think the answer is already imprinted on the Iraqi national psyche quite clearly. The coalition presence is necessary for auxiliary security for the many diverse infrastructure and business partners working in Iraq for as long as such groups need them. Hopefully Iraqi security can take over the job - but these contract helpmates are too important to the renaissance of Iraq to just abandon them to an arbitrary timetable.

Likewise, the people of Iraq need security - and security does not follow a calendar. Everyone wants to progress in the same direction ASAP. Any hard schedule would be detrimental.
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#10
Along these lines,IF the new election and government are NOT of the people,which I am beginning to fear,we may have to leave early.

I am beginning to fear the shiites are cheating,based on preliminary reports,only 18% votes for Sunnis in Baghdad looks fraudulent.

We cannot do their dirty work for them.
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#11
Iraqis are against the jihadists. Shiates hate the fact the jihadists want to stand in their way from obtaining power after thousands of years of being ruled by sunnis. Kurds are pro American cause we protected them from Saddam for so long. The sunnis were the wildcard for some time but they are being painted a bullseye on their butt by the jihadists who are instigating a civil war between sunnis and shiattes which would lead to the slaughter of sunnis. Iraq Will not become an islamic state in the frame of the taliban or Saudi Arabia.

My only concern is Iran's influence which eventually will go away once Iraqis get a short taste of theocracy and vote against it. Even with that you won't see the shiattes in Iraq become jihadists against us cause life will increase in quality for them. Hezbollah getting involved in Iraq is my only true concern because they could manage to extend the war longer. By gaining some shiatte support and being able to deliver more powerful attacks and have more hideouts than the current sunni terrorists.
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