If this is invalid info, point it out or post valid info replacing it.
I assume this is your view, which is slanderous from my perspective.
If you think calling half the entire Body of Christ, "the whore of Babylon" is not slander as well as exceptionally dangerous( similar hate filled nonsense was why Hitler found such a fertile zeitgeist in Europe), how would you characterize it? Demonstrating love towards them?
I won't waste time debating theological views about Revelation's imagery with you. Just explain why calling 1/2 of the Body of Christ the whore of Babylon is not slander?
I'm a Roman Catholic, we were taught that the Pope's infallibility is limited to the formal beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church.
In re Whore of Babylon: see the Book of Revelations, 17 and 18.
Sodomia delenda est
I know. Stupid comments like "they claim the pope is infallible" are based on heresay spoken among mentally lazy people who didn't take a moment to study. I have Catholic relatives and I know many of these libelous statements are lies.
Yea, that's where they got the term. Sort of chose the wrong group for the role though. That imagery is not of worshippers of Christ, it's part of the murderous opposition to the church in that era, IMO.
Sort of obvious, but, I reckon the SDA claim Catholics are not believers or something.
They're as much orthodox Christians as any other one is. Just as much as Ron is. Or me.
That imagery is one of a ruling group, not opposition.... John sounds like an opposition voice arguing against corrupt elite (nothing new in this world!).
Now, I am not saying that the Whore has to be the Catholic church, but there not too many other good candidates! And how do you explain seven heads and ten horns? I have a theory on the heads
(sorry, Ron!), but horns puzzle me.
Sodomia delenda est
Palladin, you claimed that I post slanderous things about Catholics. I demanded that you cite any example of where I have done this. You have failed to do this. Instead, you quote a few generalities apparently gleaned from some anti-SDA websites. Can you understand why I object to this?
I am not responsible for what other people say. But I would also point out that most Adventists are careful to distinguish Catholics from the Papal system--and what that system has done in the historical past, and what it is destined to do in the future according to prophecy.
I myself have stated on more than one occasion that I consider the Papal system to be an alien intrusion into the Catholic Church, that has victimized Catholics themselves, as much as anyone else, because of the way it misrepresents the character of God and makes it harder for believers to have faith in Christ. I also have affirmed on the basis of my understanding that the prophecy of Thyatira in Revelation chapter two is speaking about the Catholic Church, that the Catholic Church is indeed a Christian Church claimed by Christ as His own.
My problem with the Papal system is that it represents a will to combine church and state, which is a recipe for tyranny of the worst sort. The way inwhich the Papal system exhibits the spirit of antichrist is that it's teaching and practice places the priesthood between Christ and His people, even leading to calling the Pope "Lord God the Pope" (and I can quote historical documents where this has been done by leaders of the Catholic Church). The Greek word "antichrist" does not mean "against Christ," rather it means "in the place of Christ." Any tendency of any religion (and this is not limited to the Papacy) of putting men in the place of Christ, is the spirit of antichrist. It leads to worship of the creature instead of worship of the Creator, which in turn must ultimately lead to receiving the Mark of the Beast instead of the Seal of God.
The Bible, especially in its prophecies, uses the symbol of a woman to represent a church. The Church of Christ is represented as virtuous, the faithful bride of Christ. The symbol of a corrupt woman, a harlot, is used to represent a church (any church) that is not faithful to Christ. Thus the "Whore of Babylon" depicted in the prophecies of Revelation is talking about churches that have fallen, and are no longer faithful to Christ, but instead seek to employ the power of the secular state to enforce the churches' edicts. Today, we are heading in that direction, but we have not fully arrived yet. The Holy Spirit still ministers in all the Churches, even the Catholic Church. None of them have fully fallen to the point where God must call all His faithful people out of them before the Seven Last Plagues are poured out on them.
There may be some Adventists who do not make these distinctions clear, but I always have, and most responsible Adventists do. None of us feel that anyone who is in the other churches now is receiving the "Mark of the Beast." That is a danger that is future, when church and state have united to form an apostate church-state union that threatens boycott and death upon those who refuse to adher to all the churches' edicts. This has not happened yet, but we feel the danger is so great that it should be warned against.
MV, I am not at present ready to set forth any interpretation of Revelation 17. Parts of it are clear, but who are the seven heads and ten horns I am not sure, and I have not been satisfied with any explanation by others about them. Horns and heads as prophetic symbols always represent political powers and leaders, but it is not clear to me at present how to apply this to the near future. For example, some people have suggested that the seven heads represent popes. But both heads and horns and mountains refer to powers of the secular component of the end-time church-state union, to the beast; not to the corrupt woman who rides the beast. Perhaps in the final church-state union, various leaders of European nations will be allowed to take turns being emperors of the reconstituted "Holy Roman Empire." I think this is probably a prophecy that will become more important as the time approaches for its fulfillment. Then it will be easier to see its relevance.
I didn't mention the Pope. No Prot agrees with that and that's just a difference of opinion, no big deal, we all disagree on stuff.
I mentioned the "whore of Babylon". There's no sense in us debating how to interpret the Revelation. While I disagree with your take, I wouldn't mind any of it except you can't call a billion of your fellow humans and believers what the whore represents w/o seriously negative repercussions.
Honestly Ron, what did the Germans call the Jews? Stuff like that didn't they?
That type of de humanization is how Islamic radicals are raising their kids now vis a vis Jews and Christians. How could a kid KNOW which generation of Catholics is supposed to be so "disgusting"? Wouldn't they just assume Catholics are "disgusting" being as how he would think they eventually become the greatest enemy of God?
That's where you're making an error. The interpretations, we all have our own, but, this one is dangerous and morally wrong.
It should be re considered by any church because our main role is loving one another and avoiding harming one another, IMO. I can't see how teaching this isn't harmful towards the relations between you and Catholics, especially the SDA who are less responsible folks, we all have them.
If you object to the title, I'll change it to "some Adventists" if you say the article itself is not representative.
She is a part of the ruling clique, no doubt. The question for interpretation is WHEN. Ron and many US based Prots see Revelation as discussing our future, I take the view it was discussing the day and people it was written to.
7 heads and 10 horns comes from Daniel. If you read Daniel, you'll have the precursor to Revelation, especially Daniel 2,7,12.
Here's a short paper about an idea a pastor has about the relationship between Revelation and John( the gospel account) and therefore a different interpretive tool. I have the entire dissertation on my Kindle reader, this is just a quick note about it. If I could figure a way to get the dissertation to you, I would.
It's some seriously scholarly stuff, the guy noticed what we call a chiastic structure between John and Revelation(Luke and Acts, too). It's like a puzzle being completed, you can draw a line from Revelation 22:1 to John 1:1 for example and both verses are discussing the same data. Revelation 22:2 matches John 1:2 and so on. This is not exactly accurate, don't hold me to the verses, it's the pattern I am trying to describe.
Ancient Jews called this gezerazawa, allusions to previous writings offered help on interpretation.
Palladin, there can be nothing wrong at all with criticizing a system of teachings that is terribly wrong. It would be irresponsible not to do so. That is not the same thing as saying that members of a church that teach that system of teachings are "disgusting". Just deceived. I always hated communism, and was strong in my denunciation of the Soviet Union when it was still trying to dominate the world. That does not mean that I was ever anti-Russian. I was glad for the Russian people when they finally threw off the yoke of Marxist tyranny. I just wish that Catholics would throw off the yoke of the Papacy, with its attendant pagan doctrines.
Yes, there is a tremendous amount of motifs and symbols in Revelation that clearly refer back to similar motifs and symbols in Daniel. One good example is Revelation 13:2: "And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority." Notice that these are the same animals used as symbols of the Grecian, Medo-Persian, and Roman empires in Daniel chapter seven. The use of these symbols in Revelation 13:2 indicates that key spiritual principles seen in those empires of the past, especially in their methods of governance and the ways inwhich they persecuted God's faithful people, will be retained and combined and manifested in the end-time beast power. There is nothing mysterious about this. It is perfectly clear and logical.
I have never seen any real interpretive value in observing what some try to see as a "chiastic" structure in Revelation. Chiasm may have relevance as a form of poetry, but it is worthless otherwise. I find it far more instructive and illuminating to see the question-and-answer sequences implicit in Revelation. Such as where at the end of Revelation six the question is asked when Jesus is seen in the sky coming in glory, "Who shall be able to stand?" Immediately the next chapter tells about the faithful who received the special end-time seal of God, represented symbolically by the 144,000, and literally by the great multitude. That clearly is intended to answer the question raised at the end of chapter six. The faithful who have the seal of God will be able to stand--for the reasons given.
Quote:I just wish that Catholics would throw off the yoke of the Papacy, with its attendant pagan doctrines.
Now, this is quite revolutionary! I'd however note that there are a plenty of governments in bad need of overthrowing, no point to even look atconnection the Catholics!
As for Revelations-Daniel connection: yeah, surely I know this. My deeply respected (once
-- before the calculation error in Rev was found) Morozov incidentally found it inconceivable that a tradition could persist consistently for at least half of a millennium and thus argued that they had to be written at about the same time, with Daniel being a later book. Unimportant now... but if one seeks a modern "implementation" of heads and horns, Federal Reserve is still the best candidate.
Sodomia delenda est
You ignored the entire objection I posted about. "Whore of Babylon" = Catholic Church. Is it a belief of yours?
Nay, it is the Federal Reserve: Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System has seven members ("Heads" of the beast), rather clear. It is the horns that are difficult.
Sodomia delenda est
Palladin, how did you not not get my answer to that question? I spelled it out in great detail. Let me make this as simple as possible. Does the Catholic Church equal the "Whore of Babylon"? I say no. The End-time Whore of Babylon does not exist yet. The Beast does not Exist yet. The Mark of the Beast does not exist yet. But the Papacy is the best present candidate to one day become that end-time power that seeks to supplant the place of Christ and command all the earth to worship it instead of the Creator, since that is implicit in its teaching. Likewise the enforced keeping of Sunday in place of the Creator's Sabbath is the best present candidate to become the end-time Mark of the Beast. This is why I view with great concern any kind of Sunday Law.
MV, nice try, but the first Beast of Revelation 13 is clearly a European power, since it arises out of the sea. The sea is a symbol of the populations of the Old World, Europe and Middle East. This is in contrast to the "earth," where the second beast of Revelation 13 arises--in the New World, namely America, which grew up in a former wilderness. So the heads of the Beast can have nothing to do with the American Federal Reserve. The Beast forms in Europe. The Image to the Beast forms in America.
I am not presently clear on how to apply the heads and horns (of the Beast in Revelation 17), except that both are said to be some kind of "kings." Horns in Bible prophecy typically represent "powers," as in conquering powers or military powers. Heads usually refer to individuals who are rulers and exercise dominion.
The prophecy of the first trumpet indicates that there will soon be violent, all-out civil wars in Europe, with some national entities apparently being overthrown, and absorbed by their neighbors. We can guess that the civil war might involve Christian Europe vs. Islam. In a few years, there may not be a single Moslem left alive in Europe. The past brutal suppression of the Moors in Spain was but a dim foreshadowing of what is to come all throughout Europe.
There, you answered it. Thank you. I didn't want to debate your view of eschatology, we all disagree about such things.