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Suicide nation?
#21
Quote:When I was growing up, the word 'bastard' was used widely, and it has a bad connotation. Today it is almost never used, and there are so many little bastards running around that if you use the word, you will offend a lot of bastards.

Yes... say "Bastard" loudly in a crowded place, and half the people will turn to you "are you talking to me?". S6

Hmm... is suicide a libertine behavior?
Sanders 2020

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#22
... suicide ... as a function of the long term consequences of hard-core collectivism anyone? ... anyone?
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#23
(06-15-2013, 10:16 AM)mv Wrote:
Quote:When I was growing up, the word 'bastard' was used widely, and it has a bad connotation. Today it is almost never used, and there are so many little bastards running around that if you use the word, you will offend a lot of bastards.

Yes... say "Bastard" loudly in a crowded place, and half the people will turn to you "are you talking to me?". S6

LOL!! S3

Quote:Hmm... is suicide a libertine behavior?

Simply a manifestation.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#24
(06-15-2013, 10:56 AM)mr_yak Wrote: ... suicide ... as a function of the long term consequences of hard-core collectivism anyone? ... anyone?

Ok, I'll take a stab.

Since suicide, in a society that promotes Collectivism, and eschews traditional values, the economic end result is abysmal failure. It promotes depression, drug dependency, and finally suicide. The former Soviet state is a classic example. Alcoholism is rampart, and suicide higher than other societies that are more apt to allow for free enterprise.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#25
The case of Soviets is not necessarily applicable due to other factors.

For instance, there is a strong correlation between alcoholism and suicide rates, alcohol restrictions in the late 1980s decreased the suicide rate by 30%+... but also collapsed the state. (Both Russian upheavals of the 20th century were triggered by alcohol restrictions...and perhaps Turkey of today is a mini-example of the same phenomenon). One need to recheck the stats but I'm fairly sure that the advent of less collectivist state of the 1990s correlated to skyrocketing suicide rates.

(Just why alcohol consumption causes people to suicide is something I fail to understand....)

Best stick to Western stats, comparisons are difficult here.
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#26
Michael, alcohol consumption is not an indicator of suicide rates. If that were the case, Brittan would have been the perfect case study.

But in societies where there is little to offer, in desperation many turn to whatever they can use as an escape valve. And during Soviet era, especially the later phase, there was not much hope among the proletariat. So vodka was one means of escape. And you have to admit that heavy drinking is a well known Russian attribute.

But like I stated before, alcoholism is only an indicator of a far greater problem. And even when alcohol is officially restricted, the populous will find other substitutes. The book I copied here, years ago, entitled "The Threat: Inside the Soviet Military Machine" it was common for Soviet airmen to have taken all of the aircraft deicer fluid, and drunk all of it. The deicer was an alcoholic fluid. And in order to replenish the missing stock, authorities were forced to pour out large quantities of jet fuel, in order to have an excuse to claim that they had used up all of the deicer(and fuel) and needed more as a replacement. Soviet authorities had set equations for the average use of jet fuel, and the amounts of deicer used for the same amount of fuel.

And the Soviet airmen found ways to steal it and consume all of it. Any group that would go out of its way to consume the aircraft deicer fluid, has a problem. Don't you agree?
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#27
Nay, if you look at the link I have above, they state that alcohol consumption is a cause of higher suicide rates. This is mighty strange.

Absolutely no argument with drinking in Russia, aircraft deicer fluid is only one of many substitutes used at that time. Perfumes like this one specifically, glues, etc. But the causality relation to suicide is odd...I'd guess that a person denied alcohol would be far more likely to off himself.
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#28
LMAO. found this piece on Soviet drinking. Beware that the author is a pacepa, so he got some details wrong.
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#29
(06-15-2013, 01:35 PM)mv Wrote: LMAO. found this piece on Soviet drinking. Beware that the author is a pacepa, so he got some details wrong.

Oh, this is so cute, and so apropos. LOL!

Quote:Building communism without alcohol is like practising capitalism without advertising. While advertising is the engine of the market economy in capitalism, the driving force of communism was drinking.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#30
Nice sounding, but BS and this is one of the reasons I called the author a pacepa. (A pacepa, if you are not familiar with a term, is a loud and ignorant Romanian).

The truth is that alcohol consumption in Russian Empire was extraordinary high too... this is before any communism. There is a chart comparing sudden alcohol deaths here. Not all that different.

Alcohol is just a part of culture and this goes back centuries. It is possibly the most important part of culture: The first prohibition attempt (Nicolas II wanted to fight WWI sober) destroyed the Empire and caused communism; the second (Gorbachev) destroyed communism.
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#31
So, Marx had it wrong. Alcohol is the opiate of the masses. Probably because it's all they could afford in the communist enforced poverty of the Soviet Union. Russia was poor under the Tzars, too.
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#32
"Did you major in that field Anon?"

Nah, I majored in History. I read the theory in a blog.
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#33
(06-15-2013, 07:41 PM)Anonymous24 Wrote: "Did you major in that field Anon?"

Nah, I majored in History. I read the theory in a blog.

Oh yeah, I remember now. Sorry for the unintended insult. S13
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#34
Most of the discussion have involved the former Soviet state, but China is well represented as well when it comes to life takers. The core issue is poverty, corruption and hopelessness. I'm not a big fan of socialism of any flavor, but I read an article a while back about the Danes being some of the 'happiest' people on earth. A good deal of it had to do with the general consensus that they felt that they would be treated fairly and have their views and concerns given a fair hearing. The other key was that they were very lawful and mindful of the rule of law. The example was that they were the type of people that would wait a full 5 minutes at 3a.m. for a red light to change before driving through it even if there were no other cars around. If you live in a society that is rankly corrupt, where only the connected have any access to justice (or where they have the ability to bypass it completely), where getting a fair hearing of your concerns and grievances is practically nil, it has to be particularly depressing. The odds that you will prosper and thrive are viewed as non-existent. The best you can hope for is some miserable subsistence. Such and environment is going to remove the will to live for a good many people. Alcoholism and drug abuse are merely by-products, they aren't the core issue.

It says a great deal about what we are potentially facing in this country. You won't get a tax exemption or EPA permit for your group unless you are in the right cliche. Your voting rights can subject to denial if thugs block your access to the ballot and are ignored by the Justice Department. Your personal records can be perused by government official with either no due process or a very flawed and biased version of due process. When you begin to lose the rule of law, you begin living in the jungle. And for many people the jungle is a scary place in which death may actually seem preferable. Very depressing ... consider the fates of these kids ... in these cases rather than merely prosecute in a fair process, there was a effort to make examples of people with punishments that went far beyond any actual crime. Rule of law should be about rule of law and the fairness of law ... not high profile publicity stunts. Show trials are a hallmark of corrupt oppressive thug regimes ... and yet here they are in our court rooms.
http://www.cnn.com/2013/01/12/us/new-yor...r-suicide/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...-case.html
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#35
Here's something I never considered before, but it tends to make some sense here.

Suicide Afflicts Farmers at Rate Shockingly Higher Than All Other Jobs

Quote:"Farmers and agriculture workers commit suicide at a rate higher than all other occupations combined," says Wendy Ringgenberg, an assistant professor of health care administration at Des Moines University and the study's corresponding author, via email.

"Farmers' and agriculture workers' lives frequently include stressors correlated with suicide," she says. In addition to their financial struggles, farmers are also beset by feelings of not being able to meet expectations, and not being in control of events influencing their lives. Some are forced to cope with pain from injuries frequently suffered during farm work, which is one of the most dangerous ways to make a living, according to federal data.

"They struggle with their ability to carve out the role they see for themselves as farmers," says study co-author Corinne Peek-Asa, professor of occupational and environmental health in the University of Iowa College of Public Health, in a university press release, underscoring cultural pressures. "They can't take care of their family; they feel like they have fewer and fewer options and can't dig themselves out. Eventually, suicide becomes an option."

And when farmers dealing with depression reach a point at which life no longer seems worth living, they often have the means at their disposal to end things quickly, since gun ownership is high in rural America, according to this 2015 study. But Michael R. Rosmann, a Harlan, Iowa-based psychologist and University of Iowa adjunct professor who is also a farmer, says that even in countries such as Australia, where firearm restrictions are strong, see high agricultural suicide rates. "Farmers intent upon taking their lives found alternative methods," he says in an email.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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