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Innocent Casualties Of War
#1
This may be the wrong thread to place this article. If it is, I apologize.

This is one small story about a little Arab girl, her family and mother that we Americans have impacted in a tremendously evil manner and a thoughtful, beneficient German gentleman.


I'm sure 5 years ago I'd have ignored her plight and preached some worshipful USA pagan bullshit like Ron Lambert preaches. Yes, I would have.

I hate what I was and pray for little girls and folks like this that are victims of the power and evil the United States of America has become.

No tellings how many little Syrian girls the USA has assisted in becoming dead or maimed lately.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21703819
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#2
Patrick, I went and used your post as the starter of a new thread.


And I might add to you that I too would have been in the exact same boat. But I think we both started seeing the light before the time you mentioned, and the transition did not come suddenly either. One cannot be a good Christian, who cares for his/her fellow humans, and still believe that collateral damage is an acceptable part of warfare.

After all this time, all the hundreds of billions of dollars wasted, but more importantly the countless deaths of innocent bystanders, killed and mained US military believing they were helping make America safer, and other costs, what has been accomplished? Nothing much has really changed over there. Its just a mess of our own doing, simply because it offered us an opportunity to take out an evil regime we deemed in need of replacing.

As you and I get older, we see things a bit differently don't we? And this is why I blame Junior for what happened. Now we are broke, despised around the world, and all the worse for it.

Our Founding Fathers were absolutely right about staying out of other's business. Every time we stick our nose into other's affairs it always comes back to haunt us. And both parties think they have the right to keep on interfering, and guess who really loses out in the ling run?

This is why Real Liberals love peace and prosperity, because everyone wins. Individual Liberty and Free Enterprise are always the best form of foreign policy, no matter what the hawks may scream about.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#3
"The path to hell is paved with good intentions". What we're doing is creating misery and suffering unlike 100 other states right now 5000 miles away from home, yet I realize most of us think it's "good". You have to really work at it to be blind to the suffering we're causing folks. Including the mass psychological damage we've done to our own infantry.

More suicides than combat deaths, wonder when that will awaken some more of us?
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#4
That's BS.The concept that using a human shield to protect you as you kill far more people somehow insulates you from the full responsibility of your shields' deaths is ludicrous. We all agree that all deaths are unacceptable, but there is a mathematical relationship to ponder. The basis of a safe haven for terrorists (or gang-bangers here at home) has always been to blend in with the innocent, so their opposition is unable to get at them.

It is not good intentions that is the culprit - but the deliberate plan of the hostage-takers that should be condemned.

There are variations of this theme: the innocent kids rigged with bombs sent by Iran across the battlefield at Iraqi soldiers, the hospital or school being the place the Hammas rocketeers use to hide their launch platforms as they fire missiles into Israel, the kid who thinks he's tough by killing someone and then hiding behind his mother's apron-strings. There is also the 16-year-old kid killed when a terrorist is killed by a drone. What happened to Ardra in Baghdad was sad, but the original plan was Shock and Awe. If you remember, President Bush called off that deluge of bombs and missiles because there was a chance of taking out Saddam Hussein without wiping out the whole neighborhood. We missed him by inches - but the decision was made to alleviate pain and destruction.

Shock and Awe didn't happen. The original war-gamed plan was decided upon as the best way to minimize the pain and suffering, but would have had innocents caught up in it. Whose fault was that for putting legitimate military targets amongst the civilians? I don't know if I would have had the courage to call the shots then, but the Democrats and their pet media had enumerated the body bags we would need when our soldiers were killed by the WMD's that they told us was there. Looking at the predicted thousands of agonizing deaths by poison gas or other proscribed weaponry made us think to do anything we could do stop the fighting by striking at its head.

It is easy to second-guess, long after the crunch time has come and gone, but no one ever goes out of their way to hurt non-combatants. The only time it happens is when the bad guys hide behind apron-strings. Blame them - not the good guys trying to stop the carnage. Remember, at the time, we thought Hussein, or someone else had targeted America, itself, with Anthrax. It wasn't us going there, it was thought we were protecting our own. You can use 20-20 hindsight now, but at the time, the decisions were pretty evident.

Palladin, don't beat yourself up for participating in a war effort that was thought at the time to be honorable and necessary. No one wants casualties - but you know what General Patton said about making the other poor dumb bastards die for his country.
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#5
Quote: you know what General Patton said about making the other poor dumb bastards die for his country

I don't recall Patton talking about killing and maiming little girls.... but perhaps this is what he meant? Shock
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#6
Watching Bill reminds me of the story of the homely insect that eventually transforms into a beautiful butterfly at the end. Some make the transformation, and some don't.

Bill is still an ongoing process that may yet make the change. S5
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#7
Beautiful butterflies get eaten by birds just as well as caterpillars. Except possibly for Monarch butterflies that have a bitter taste because they fed on milkweed when they were caterpillars.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people can mischaracterize cowardice and appeasement before a vicious, mass-murdering bunch of sworn enemies as somehow moral. Selective blindness and willful stupidity are the only explanations I can guess at. Another or an additional explanation might be that some are attracted to the easy, cheap way to pretend they are righteous by being superficial, and not having to deal with anything that demands real discernment. The morality of such people comes straight from Satan. They serve him, not God, by seeking to weaken the hands of those who would oppose evil with all their means.
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#8
What I find most interesting is that those who have never, ever, been in combat, who have never led by example, who have never volunteered to go in harm's way, are usually the very first to beat the drums,.................just as long as others, or other's relatives, are the ones going there, dying and being mained.

Why is this Ron? Did you ever go to the recruiting office and volunteer for the US Army, or Marines, so as to defend Liberty, and fighting overseas? Hey Bill, how many years did you spend leading others in harm's way?

Having been there, done that, I'll be the first to admit that the adrenaline surges were addictive...for me anyway. Like an alcoholic, I'm honestly addicted to adrenaline. That's why I quit doing things, such as willingly being shot out, or jumping out of airplanes, or riding fast motorcycles, or rushing from point A to point B. And my only regret was talking my way into Ranger School, which was the worst experience I ever spent in the army. Those folks are certified loonies.

But I'm also wise enough....now to know that using violence against others, when not really necessary, is not productive in the long run. As a Christian, who quotes the bible constantly, can you tell me what Christ's main message to us was, and how he preached obtaining it? Was it at the tip of a sword?

So, here are some questions. Do you have any close relatives who lost a leg, or arm, or are permanently traumatized from being exposed to all the killing that combat guarantees? And believe me, it is not a pretty sight.

And isn't there more than one reference in the scriptures which state that violence only begets violence? And if so, shouldn't it be used only as a last resort, in order to defend one's self? And here's the kicker from the ME POV, how much better off is the Middle East now, as a result of us going in and then playing Daddy Warbucks to these folk? And let's not use Kuwait in this, because what was done was right and just.

Here's my personal thinking. We did the correct thing to go into Afghanistan, kick ass and take names,....and then get the hell out of Dodge. We did the former, but pointedly did not do the later. And look at what the escalating price happens to be? And in retrospect, we should never have gone into Iraq because once you(second person plural) punch the tar baby, getting unstuck is so much harder to achieve. And did we try to get out of there once we got rid of "you know who"? No, of course not. And who is ultimately to blame for this?

And here's another question for you. Being a dedicated DOPer, is your stance in part a defense of your former leader who put us there, and do you feel compelled to back him up because he is a member of Your team? And is your spirited defense an honest and moral one?

And here is a great example of just how much we have accomplished in Iraq. It just happened today, and is far from unique: 50 killed in violence in Baghdad. My guess is that this is not going to end either, in spite of what we did. So how successful were we, in spite of the death and destruction? And how many innocent bystanders such as the girl above, always wind up getting caught in the middle.

Oh, and Bill, would you still have the exact same attitude if your daughter was the one who was caught in the fighting and lost one of her limbs needlessly?
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#9
Beautiful butterflies...sounds so gay... S16
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#10
William,

This girl was hurt by a bomb dropped on her at the initial invasion, had nothing to do with terrs. Besides the fact that we warred on a state who did not threaten us(which used to be the western logic for war), it bothers me immensely how many of them and us we've near destroyed.

For what? To turn Iraq into an Iranian subsidiary and now we probably want to make some type of war on Iran don't we, from your perspective? How wise is THAT?

Not to mention the daily chaos we unleashed in Iraq that is still unbelievably awful, we are causing severe grief to folks across the world and that German gentleman properly expected we Americans to pay for this girl's operation, we caused her problems and we won't pay anything.

IF this was Russia or China running around the globe creating evil and havoc, you'd be wanting us to stop it, since it's us it's intrinsic good. You're too bright to stick with that line, just look at what we've created in the near east with our power lately.

Chaos, death, empowering Iran and the Muslim brotherhood and increased persecution of Christians and other minorities. That's evil. I don't give a flip if the US or Switzerland causes it, it's evil.
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#11
John L, I have probably recounted this before in this forum. But I was drafted during the Vietnam War. I was faced with somewhat of a dilemma, because my church believed in being "conscientious co-operators," meaning we would serve, but as medics, and would not bear arms. However, I did not agree with this, and felt that communist tyranny was truly evil and I was willing to oppose it with force of arms. On the rare occasions when I had fired a gun, I had demonstrated uncommon skill, and probably would have wound up a sharpshooter. But it also happened that I had been afflicted with asthma for the first part of my life, and I was hospitalized with pneumonia four times before I was ten years old. So I was given a I-Y classification, which meant I would not be drafted except in time of national emergency or declared war. A few years later this was changed to the standard 4F. Since I am older than Bill, it is likely that the fact that I was originally drafted influenced the draft lottery number my brother was given, and that is probably why he was never drafted. Though at one point he did try to get into West Point, and even got a congressman to write him a letter of recommendation. He was disqualified because one of his eyes was diagnosed as a "lazy eye", and was not as sharp as was required.

So you can say whatever snarky, caviling thing you want. The fact remains that I am calling anyone who does not believe in opposing evil a coward, lacking in moral conviction. And you do not defuse that legitimate charge by saying I am not entitled to my position simply because I never served in the military. Anyone who tries to weaken the hands of those who are willing to oppose evil with all their might, are traitors to humanity and rebels against God. And I will never cease to say that. It is the absolute truth.

Failing to discriminate properly between the tyrannical wars of conquest as was practiced by fascist and communist regimes, and the attempts by America to protect people's right to be free of tyranny, is the stupidest thing I can imagine.
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#12
First of all, I am not a pacifist by any means. And attempting to equate 'fighting' something as using armed force from one's state, is not the only way to fight/resist tyranny. And it certainly should be relegated to the 'Last Resort' category.

But my problem with you Ron is that you throw armed intervention around as though it is the preferred means of combating tyranny, or evil, as you phrase it. And once you start down the 'slippery slope' where does it end: with the total removal of all evil? And just how would you accomplish this?

And where does Christ even exhort his followers to combat evil by taking up a sword? I challenge you to come up with the passage.

And please show where what we have done in Iraq, or Afghanistan following the uprooting of el Quaeda, has been a net plus from a practical point? We have wasted over one trillion dollars, in each country, and for what? We have huge numbers of Americans who have been killed, disfigured, and mentally traumatized, and for what? Have we made our lives safer? Have we enhanced our respect around the world? And what of all the collateral damage? Who gets to live with all that?

And most importantly, from what you keep telling us, where has this shown we are following the teaching of Jesus/Yeshua? Please show me where all this is according to your religious teachings?

What is right is right, and what is wrong is wrong, and no amount of posturing is going to change that. I cannot help but feel as though I too have blood on my hands, because I voted for Junior in 2004. I deeply regret it, and you can take this to the bank. I will never vote for someone who condones going into another's yard and beating him over the head, because they aren't doing things as he/she deems right and moral.

I also think it ironic that we have a history of initiating hostilities against someone who is an easy push-over. Why didn't we do this with the Soviets? And why aren't we already in NK for heaven's sake. If anyone is dangerous, it is they, and where are we in getting ready to invade and save the starving masses over there? There is a word for all this, and it is spelled H Y P R O C I S Y. And you should know full well what the bible, both old and new, think of hypocrisy, right?

And there's also another thing that the bible states in several locations. You know, the one about getting one's house in order before going after another house, or words to that effect. Do you recall that?
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#13
(03-19-2013, 11:54 PM)John L Wrote: But my problem with you Ron is that you throw armed intervention around as though it is the preferred means of combating tyranny, or evil, as you phrase it. And once you start down the 'slippery slope' where does it end: with the total removal of all evil? And just how would you accomplish this?

No, this is not a problem at all. Evil should be resisted, on this I agree with Ron.

Ron's problem is that he allows personalities like Junior and Boy (in other words, *dumb*, *dishonest* and outright *evil* personalities) to define *evil* for him.... and once this is done, why should we be surprised to see us doing evil?

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Anyway.... it seems that NY schools are now preparing 3rd-graders for more warfare...
[Image: 18.1n006.books2--300x300.jpg]

(I think the book authors mean to say that bombing mosques is fun... not arguing with this. S13 )
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#14
You know, I voted against Bush Jr. in 2000, because I was angry at the way the Republican Party in my state tried to orchestrate things and stack the deck in favor of Bush. I actrually voted for Gore, not knowing at that time what a total flake he was going to turn out to be about global warming. While I voted against Bush, I was very favorably impressed by the way that he handled 911, and urged the country not to blame all Muslims.

As for our invasion of Afghanistan to depose the Taliban, which refused to stop sheltering Al Qaada, U.S. forces did in one month what the Soviet Union had failed to do in many years. As for what has been done since then to help pacify the country, perhaps you have forgotten the many appeals that were circulated on behalf of the women of Afghanistan, how they were not allowed to be educated or learn to read, and were allowed to be abused abominably with no rights. The only way possible to change something like that is by military intervention to depose the fanatics who maintained the regime of evil.

And do you really need me to recount all the horrible things Saddam Hussein used to do--along with his psychotic sons? Including using nerve gas against the Kurds, torturing and murdering anyone who questioned his policies, not to mentioning launching an invasion of Kuwait, that could only be opposed by force. Then there was the ten years of constant violation of no-fly zones, etc. (Those ten years were the fault of Bush Sr. who lacked the moral courage to send the tanks on to Baghdad when he should have.) And don't forget that Saddam Hussein boasted repeatedly that he had weapons of mass destruction, which he had actually used against the Kurds, and earlier against the Iranians.

How are you going to sort these things out without the use of military force?

The Bible does teach that we are to oppose evil. Many times God directly told Israel to kill people who deserved killing. And it may surprise you to know that the God who has always dealt with humanity was the Son of God. It was Jesus who appeared in the burning bush to Moses. I can provide you with the Biblical evidence if you need it.

What God tells individuals about how to relate to authority is one thing. What God says to nations and governments goes far beyond that.
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#15
In at least some circumstances, some folks don't have the wisdom to distinguish between levels of evil. I've probably been more egregious than most in my days, this isn't personal with me.

To allow a pagan state to evangelize us into killing folks who are no threat to us is evil. The only thing nations do is advance their self interests, that's all they can do. Total self absorption.

In 1945 it just so happened that our opponents were more evil than us, but, we'd have fought WWII if they'd all been Christian monasteries if need be to prevent them from interfering with our emerging role as Rome.

We'd have opposed the USSR if it had been a Christian monastery because they were in our way. We messed with Japan via sanctions, not because they were evil(they were,but, that's beside the point), but, because they competed with our ambitions in a foreign continent.

We didn't oppose either because we were good and they were bad, we were near as anti semitic as Germany in 1940. I have a photo of the Alabama band forming a swastika in 1941 football season to bring some resonance to that statement. I just don't know how to post photos.

In particular, southerners hated Jews and we lynched some Jews down here, too, in the 1900s even in Atlanta(allegedly cosmopolitan Atlanta). FDR would not let a boat load of Hitler survivors land here and guess what happened to them? Got sailed right back to the 1000 year Reich.

Resisting evil on the personal and/or spiritual level, that's great to do. I encourage all to go that route.

It's near impossible to do when you're part of a people group allegedly more moral than another people group who doesn't threaten you, especially when we don't have eyewitness accounts by being nearby, we're dependent on our state pr machine for the truth.

I'd say the pronouncements of the US government have a low % of truth in them, we've all been around long enough to see this, we've accepted outrageous lies to start wars and this is since day 1. For example, Mexico did not invade the USA, we invaded Mexico. Our state lies a lot and we're too stupid to see through their bs. It's almost always been this way.

How hard is it to figure out? Iraq has had chaotic massacres since 2003, no one appreciates that over there except nihilists like Sadr. We killed and severely harmed X amount of people simply to advance our hegemony 5000 miles from home, that's evil. It doesn't matter if we think Hussein was more evil than Maliki , we don't know the truth over here, we're dependent on the US state for this "truth".

Our own soldiers are committing suicide like flies right now, they are living and dying this nightmare Rome policy driven by thoughtless self absorbed Americans. My guess is a lot of that is guilt.

Ron, folks like you and myself need to volunteer and go kill people ourselves if we support this hateful trash and stop propagandizing youngsters into it. They're killing themselves like crazy right now and I am partially responsible and so are you.



The success of arms we're having is causing grief globally, harming the church severely in those states( I contend harming the church period because it's an evil policy we Christians do when we support pagan states like this and non Christians see our hypocrisy) and often presenting worse governance as replacements.

Look for example at Syria right now, all we're about is empowering Islamists anywhere it's possible and I imagine a majority wishes we'd also invade Syria and maybe Iran.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/midd...story.html

This one is specifically for believers here. Christ, not elected leaders of pagan states is our icon and King. His kingdom is NOT about all this power play Roman Empire trash and neither should His people be for it.

http://www.knoxnews.com/news/2013/mar/17...political/

One last point. Some keep discussing getting rid of "evil leaders". Often times the replacement is worse.

While we played no role, Venezuela's new leader appears more radical and insane than Chavez for example.

Jesus even alluded to the "cleansing of the temple" by the Maccabees post Antiochus Epiphanes as making things even worse in Israel as relates to evil thinking, He said they cleansed out 1 demon and replaced it with 7. We are not wise enough to determine who rules nations, we're not wise enough to elect good leaders here. We aren't wise enough to run our own business right here at home.
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#16
Ron, I had this lengthy post put up, but on second thought I'm deleting. Arguing with you is not worth the effort, because you will find any excuse to go out and force your religious fervour onto others. I'm not going to waste my precious time, because after all is said and done, there is always a lot more said than done.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#17
Quote: I imagine a majority wishes we'd also invade Syria

the way Syria is being reported, quite likely the majority would like us to help Al Qaeda AKA freedom fighters more....

Quote:The only thing nations do is advance their self interests, that's all they can do. Total self absorption.

No more true. Please show which self interests US was advancing in Iraq. If there is one, I promise to stop calling Junior a total sociopath... S6
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#18
MV,

Assuming we would have an easy time of it and semi permanent bases to advance our "interests" in Iraq/ near east. We didn't reckon on Iraqis failing to believe our pr bs . What a stunner.
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#19
Does not work: the usual approach is to place bases in small controllable countries on the coast, not in large inland countries. Bases in Kuwait and Bahrain were sufficient. Further bases in Iraq were stupid (and bases in Afghanistan, asinine). The base idea is way too illogical even with the assumption that Junior et al were not afflicted with intelligence. S6

Actually, the only rationale for the invasion that may be construed as advancing national interests was Iraqi oil.


A curve ball to Ron:

Ron Lambert Wrote:I actrually voted for Gore, not knowing at that time what a total flake he was going to turn out to be about global warming.

To the best of my recollection I went 3rd party in 2000...did not like either major candidate. But your vote for Gore might have been the wise one. It is far from obvious that Gore would have gone into global warming while presiding... and we might have avoided the deficits with Gore resisted by a GOP congress. (Clinton's budgets were nearly balanced.) Heck, we might have avoided GOP meltdown.
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#20
You know what? I wish Gore had won in 2000. He wouldn't have succeeded anymore than Obama on his AGW transfer cash to Buffet programs. He wouldn't have invaded Iraq and nothing Bush did otherwise has a permanent positive effect on us that we'd be missing today.

I have come to see Bush jr as our worst POTUS of my lifetime, even including Carter and Obama. No other activity has caused us and the world more problems than Bush invading Iraq w/o validity.

He would have invaded Afghanistan. Maybe appointed a gay general or 2 to the joint chiefs deal to appease the gay activists and changed DADT policy. Nothing we haven't already done.
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