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Drone Fiasco
#1
If nobody is going to start a thread on this very important issue, I'm going to.

But first, lets get one thing straight as I know it. This drone policy is not something new. It was started by "Guess Who" and like all good Big Government Dumbasses, who may not have had the active intent on using it as the policy allows, nonetheless opened the door for others to follow.

And follow it is exactly what the Bamster & Company intend to do if they can get away with it. So, this is a DOP initiated policy, and Jackasses are nothing less than opportunistic, when it involves Statism over the citizenry.

Barack Obama 'has authority to use drone strikes to kill Americans on US soil'

Quote:Eric Holder argued that using lethal military force against an American in his home country would be legal and justified in an "extraordinary circumstance" comparable to the September 11 terrorist attacks.

"The president could conceivably have no choice but to authorise the military to use such force if necessary to protect the homeland," Mr Holder said.

His statement was described as "more than frightening" by Senator Rand Paul, a Republican from Kentucky, who had demanded to know the Obama administration's position on the subject.

"It is an affront the constitutional due process rights of all Americans," said Mr Paul, a 50-year-old favourite of the anti-government Tea Party movement, who is expected to run for president in 2016.

Mr Holder wrote to Mr Paul after the senator threatened to block the appointment of John Brennan as the director of the CIA unless he received answers to a series of questions on its activities.

Mr Paul on Wednesday evening took to the floor of the Senate to launch an old-fashioned filibuster in an effort to delay a vote on the approval of Mr Brennan for CIA director. “I won’t be able to speak forever, but I’m going to speak as long as I can,” he said, before embarking on several hours of criticism of Mr Obama's compliance with the US constitution.

And to highlight this Senator Rand Paul conducted a 13 hour filibuster, which has gained him very high exposure, from almost everywhere.

And Holder has stated that the Bamster "Has No Intention" Of Carrying Out Drone Strikes In America. And if you believe this, you will most likely believe anything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...6Jn9memOYE

And Ted Cruz, another Tea Party stalwart, finally gets Holder to give a simple one word/syllable answer. This is a Must Watch video on how to land a marlin. S5

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zEk1hxyw8D0

And while the Tea Party members are following Paul's lead, The Ruling Class Establishment Old Bulls, are definitely unhappy to be preempted by a bunch of teenagers: Graham, McCain blast Paul filibuster. And make no mistake, these two doofuses are just the front men for the DOP establishment, who would rather be rubbing shoulders with other Ruling Class leaders, than actually fighting for the citizen's Liberties.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...aOPMrOFU#!

Quote:John McCain and Lindsey Graham Declare War on Rand Paul

Brian Doherty|Mar. 7, 2013 12:09 pm

The anti-Rand Pauls, Sen. John McCain of Arizona and Lindsey Graham of South Carolina, took to the Senate floor this morning to defend killing American citizens at presidential discretion. Graham is doing so live on C-SPAN2 right now, saying that everything you do is a danger to America no matter who or where you are, as long as the U.S. government has decided you have "joined al-Queda," whatever the hell that means.

Earlier John McCain said, as Business Insider reported:

Quote:"Calm down, Senator," McCain said, in an admonition to Paul. "The U.S. government cannot randomly target U.S. citizens."

McCain argued that Paul's warning that the Obama could target would U.S. citizens in "cafes" on American soil, and his related "Jane Fonda" analogy, bring the debate into the "realm of the ridiculous."

"If Mr. Paul wants to be taken seriously he needs to do more than pull political stunts that fire up impressionable libertarian kids," he said. "I don't think what happened yesterday is helpful to the American people."

The Republican Party is at war, folks, and let's hope Rand Paul and his troops win.

For no other reason, the DOP needs to be put out of everyone's misery, so we can get back to preserving our Liberties and combating Collectivism.

My guess is that this is only the very beginning of the rebellion that is going to make Huge changes within the political establishment. The opportunities are enormous, and I predict will lead to a net increase in Tea Party member of both houses.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#2
The key is, would the alleged bad guy be armed and active at the time?

Because then it would be as legal as foreign drone kills. If the guy is unarmed, it's murder whether done to an American or not.

If we take up arms against the state, then he's like Lincoln was except drone kills most often violate the Geneva conventions. I'd add here to make it lawful w/o questions, the legislature has the constitutional authority and responsibility to enact the section of the document allowing emergency activity.
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#3
The POTUS admits he has no authority to murder citizens, that's a concession.

I'd a swore he thought he did have that authority.

http://hotair.com/archives/2013/03/07/ja...-u-s-soil/
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#4
(03-07-2013, 03:01 PM)Palladin Wrote: The key is, would the alleged bad guy be armed and active at the time?

Because then it would be as legal as foreign drone kills. If the guy is unarmed, it's murder whether done to an American or not.

If we take up arms against the state, then he's like Lincoln was except drone kills most often violate the Geneva conventions. I'd add here to make it lawful w/o questions, the legislature has the constitutional authority and responsibility to enact the section of the document allowing emergency activity.

I've been listening to this issue all day now, and Rand Paul has made it very clear that going after someone who is an imminent threat, such as carrying a rocket launcher(his own words), or in the process of harming lawful citizens, then we have the right to use force to put a halt to it.

But if that person, no matter how potentially guilty, is not in the process of committing violence, then to use drones to kill him/her is clearly a violation of the constitution. And what about the intelligence value wasted?

But this is something the Bamster was going to see if he could get away with. And the main point is that this opportunity should never have been possible in the first place. And that is why I so despise Big Government Dumbasses, who have the audacity to actually think nobody would abuse such powers.

What planet are these idiots from anyway? And McDoofus just restated that very thing today. And this guy was the DOP's candidate in 2008 for president,................and some here were enraptured with him? For crying out loud, this is a perfect example of Alien Logic. I am not a Seer, so why can't others see this when even a dummy such as myself can see it?
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#5
If we used Rand's justification outside the citizen paradigm, the entire drone program would be ended. I doubt many people killed by them are armed at the time.

I for one am against the entire program. I used to support it, not now.

If a soldier would be arrested for shooting an unarmed person, then so should the people who release the hellfires and the POTUS who ordered it.

There's no way to justify it unless our soldiers can do it whenever they want to. Of course I am opposed to that as well. We're too close as it is to being Murder INC.
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#6
Rand Paul answers the criticism. At the 10:45 point in the video, he is directly asked about McCain's and Graham's criticism, but is very civil about it all.

And McDoofus, unable to keep his mouth shut, ups the ante even further:

Quote:Angry McCain ups ante, calls Paul, Cruz 'wacko birds'

Elder Sen. John McCain, who this week engaged in friendly fire when he launched his "maverick" missiles at fellow Republicans seeking clarification on the administration's drone policies, has upped the ante, deriding Tea Party-backed GOP lawmakers as "wacko birds."

McCain, who hit the Senate floor Thursday to belittle Sen. Rand Paul's filibuster, which succeeded in getting an answer from President Obama that drones won't be used to kill Americans on U.S. soil, even suggested that the Kentucky senator and his allies, like Texas Sen. Ted Cruz and Michigan Rep. Justin Amash, don't represent the GOP mainstream.

"It's always the wacko birds on right and left that get the media megaphone," McCain told Huffington Post's Jon Ward in a story titled "John McCain: Getting Back To Maverick, With An Eye On Retirement."

He added, "I think it can be harmful if there is a belief among the American people that those people are reflective of the views of the majority of Republicans. They're not."

Ward wrote: "I asked McCain to clarify who, specifically, he was talking about."

McCain said, "Rand Paul, Cruz, Amash, whoever."

Despite McCain's view, several GOP leaders, including Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, praised Paul's efforts. McConnell even said he was "proud" of Paul, further proof of a growing divide in the Senate Republican caucus.

Conservatives have expressed outrage at McCain's hit on Paul, raising anew the charges in the 2008 presidential campaign that he is too much of a maverick for the GOP.

"He showed his true colors. He has now attacked Senator Cruz and Senator Paul for basically leading and keeping promises they made to their constituents not too mention their oath to uphold the Constitution," said one activist.

But the clash also put on display the fight between the old bulls and the new turks for control of the party, other said.

I think it is safe to say that McCain and Graham are the official mouthpieces for the DOP Ruling Class, who are not going to tolerate anything that bucks their idea of how the political world should work. Personally I think we need to "bring it on" because it will lead to the DOP's rebirth, or demise, even quicker, in my opinion.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#7
John,

To me this is way bigger than politics or if McCain is a RINO and what all that equals.



The drone policy allows our leaders to murder people in clear violation of our alleged agreement with the Geneva conventions.

Unless a person is a known enemy combatant and armed and offered an opportunity to surrender, we're acting as criminals here.

To me it doesn't seem important whether or not we agree Obama can't murder one of us legally if we're at ease with him murdering other humans like this. It's murder in most cases and I think we'll do better not to murder folks as a policy.

This whole GWOT is a license to indiscriminately kill, we have no clue who they're killing and I don't trust the US government to speak truthfully about a single issue.
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#8
A nice writeup on McClown here.

as for GWOT: all this misunderstanding because of a single letter? Did it occur to you guys that the acronym actually stands for Global War of terror? S13
Sanders 2020

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#9
(03-08-2013, 01:14 PM)Palladin Wrote: John,

To me this is way bigger than politics or if McCain is a RINO and what all that equals.



The drone policy allows our leaders to murder people in clear violation of our alleged agreement with the Geneva conventions.

Unless a person is a known enemy combatant and armed and offered an opportunity to surrender, we're acting as criminals here.

To me it doesn't seem important whether or not we agree Obama can't murder one of us legally if we're at ease with him murdering other humans like this. It's murder in most cases and I think we'll do better not to murder folks as a policy.

This whole GWOT is a license to indiscriminately kill, we have no clue who they're killing and I don't trust the US government to speak truthfully about a single issue.

Patrick, I totally agree with you here. It is an attempt to further undermine our Liberties, and both parties are guilty as charged. And it didn't just start with the Bamster, but with Junior.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#10
(03-08-2013, 01:36 PM)mv Wrote: A nice writeup on McClown here.

as for GWOT: all this misunderstanding because of a single letter? Did it occur to you guys that the acronym actually stands for Global War of terror? S13

Oh Boy, what a find! I have not been looking at PJ Media for a couple of days and missed this gem.

Quote:Even after losing the 2008 election, the senator (R.-Media) felt compelled to stand again in 2010, defeating J.D. Hayworth in the primary and easily winning re-election in the general. For McCain, there was no penalty for failure — as there never has been, throughout his life. (In this, he is eerily like Obama, the living embodiment of the Peter Principle.) After all, with a net worth of at least $20 million, whatever fire McCain may have had in the belly had long since been extinguished by the good life:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pla...pmFd25tRqo

The GOP cannot hope to win another national election unless and until it retires flawed, easily caricatured men like John McCain – and never nominates them again.(Don't hold your Breath)

I just LOVE that part about the Peter Principle,.......because its so true. Actually, its a shame he was able to escape that jet of his, when the forestal fire almost got him. Shucks, what a missed opportunity. Just think of all the trouble the country could have been saved from if his payload had happened to have gone off early, instead of going off later and killing the seniour chief leading the fire brigade.

Oh, and that ad is so well done, it almost looks like something the Tea Party would use against this Turkey.

I tell all of my South Carolina family and friends, that if they reelect that Goober fellow, the deserve disease and pestilence for the next decade.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#11
And speaking of the Forestall debacle, there are some witnesses, who blame McDoofus for actually starting the catastrophe.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chuiyXQKw3I

Here's a more detailed article on the accident.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#12
Pick fights that you have a reasonable chance at winning John. McCain isn't going anywhere until 2016 ... and he's made noises about not running again ... at 80 ... so lets hope. But Mini-Maverick Graham is up in 2014.

I'm not supporting either of these guys ... and I certainly would not argue that auto-cannibalism isn't unconscionable. I'm just saying that one these "Old Bulls" nuts are hanging quite a bit lower ... and are probably more worthy of taking a swing at.

These guys made themselves look like fools ... particularly Graham ... which elevates and amplifies Paul's effort even more ... so try to look at the glass as half full.

Drone warfare is going to bite us in the ass. We spend way more than any other nation on the planet on defense ... yet were driving the nature of war towards a low cost technology that facilitates cheap and deadly global projection. We're hated for how we are using this stuff, and making all sorts of empty rationalizations to justify pink misting anyone that manages to land on a list. We're undermining our strengths and losing anything resembling moral authority. I'm not saying it shouldn't be used, but we're using it very badly ... and that's going to come back home to roost.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#13
(03-08-2013, 09:59 PM)mr_yak Wrote: Drone warfare is going to bite us in the ass. We spend way more than any other nation on the planet on defense ... yet were driving the nature of war towards a low cost technology that facilitates cheap and deadly global projection. We're hated for how we are using this stuff, and making all sorts of empty rationalizations to justify pink misting anyone that manages to land on a list. We're undermining our strengths and losing anything resembling moral authority. I'm not saying it shouldn't be used, but we're using it very badly ... and that's going to come back home to roost.

No Jack, we are doing just the opposite, and leading the way in all things "high dollar".



None of its cheap by a long shot. Unless you have ever been in the military, and especially in supply, maintenance, or command, you have no idea of the built in redundancy required of everything the military purchases. Everything is supposed to be shock proof, drop proof, kick proof, nuclear EMP proof, and proof everything in the world that you may never think of.

In the early 70s, just standard radio sets, such as the PRC(prick)-25, which was standard back pack portable, located in every tank, and command vehicle, in my battalion, and all sorts of units, and we are talking well over a thousand dollars, in 1970 money. It was buttressed with all sorts of backup circuity, yada, yada yada. When they first entered the theatre they were supposed to cost right at $400 base, but you can forget that because nothing costs as it is suppose to.

Every company commander has to take a complete company inventory when assuming command, and when being replaced, he has to do it all over again, for the new commander coming in. And there are dollar values for everything, and the numbers are enough to give you heartburn with worry every night you go to bed. And if you come up short of any equipment, you had better shit one, or you just bought it. Talk about responsibility! At the time of my command time, I was directly responsible for over 3.5 million dollars of equipment, again in 1970 dollars. Just think of what a lowly company commander today is responsible for?

And yet those damned things(everything for that matter) were still breaking down all the time, and putting any tank in an ESC Red condition. Its enough to make you sick. And we are head and shoulders above anything the Russians field,...........with one exception: tubes. The Russians rely on good old fashioned tubes, which really work great, while solid state will fry easily.

And don't think for a minute that what is being used today is cheap in comparison. All of it is outrageously expensive. Now, an M1A3 tank costs several million dollars, when the M60A1 I had in my unit cost $274,000 plus dollars. Now that's inflation for you, or whatever it is.

Nothings cheap in the military because they have outrageous specs that still don't work as speced. Why do you think an Apache has a flight time to maintenance ratio of well over fifty/one? And in spite of all the time spend trying to keep the damned things airborne, they still break down all the time.

I know it is very high because one of my friends is an Apache driver, and just got promoted to "O5" last year. Even he is not exactly sure of the total hours, but his cav unit's seniour warrant officer maintenance chief also repairs air conditioners. And I used him once, to fix my home unit. He told me that the average number of maintenance hours per flight time were well over fifty to one. How'd you like to have that requirement on your family car?

Having spent six months as a tank battalion head of maintenance(Motor Officer), tank company commander, and graduate of the Command Maintenance Management School, I can tell you that nothing the military does/uses/purchases is cheap, or dependable,......by a long shot.

The military always uses the acronym of KISS, but when it comes to actually putting it into action with regards to equipment, they never heard of what KISS means. I'm as serious as a heart attack here.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#14
Somebody else will figure out how to do it in a "non-$600 toilet seat" fashion. Friggin' Iran has started developing a Fred Flintstone version of their own ... after we handed them over one of our Lamborghini class robo-killers. Our current leaders love this stuff because it has such a deceivingly low political cost ... actual dollar value be damned. Once our enemies figure out how to do it on the cheap it will be a nasty little lever. They may not be able to sail aircraft carriers into a region that they want to control or deploy a battalion of heavy armor, but they'd be able to target and splat individuals and institutions at will ... like say specific Synagogue ... or Senator ... and that is pretty powerful stuff and we're paving the way toward making the art of remote control war the commonly accepted norm. This will NOT work out in our favor.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#15
I've been editing my post, so you may want to reread it. S5


But yes, drones are a lot cheaper than the cost of a regular unit of tanks, or helicopters, or.............................. But the chance of making some horrible, and costly, mistake is much higher.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#16
(03-08-2013, 11:35 PM)John L Wrote: But yes, drones are a lot cheaper than the cost of a regular unit of tanks, or helicopters, or.............................. But the chance of making some horrible, and costly, mistake is much higher.

The people that would potentially attack us with a Walmart version UAV don't lose a lot of sleep worrying about making "horrible mistakes". We're promoting the holy grail of asymmetric warfare ... and Eric Holder is legitimizing it with his idiot legal memos. Is it just me or does this seem like a fatally stupid strategy?
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#17
I think it will be soon when private individuals, let alone funded states, can access and utilize drones with weapons. We already can buy the drone as it is. It's a can of worms and the fact the US has "done it" like atom bombs makes us indefensible in claiming it's evil.

BTW, note this below. Doesn't seem like much, but, I bet it's the start of a "prevailing wind" reaction about the issue. I bet they go back and erase all video also of past murders.

http://www.airforcetimes.com/news/2013/0...ry-030813/
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#18
It's a step in the right direction. 'Transparency' is something that this Administration has opted to pick and choose. You can be critical of them toning it down after Paul's filibuster (which the 'establishment' has derided as ridiculous) ... but, frankly, this is something that we should not be continually spiking the ball on. Even if that's all that Paul accomplished, he managed to accomplish a lot in only a few hours.

Regarding the private drones ... they've been using them quite a bit to get dirt on hunting clubs (I think that was a posted here) ... but I don't think I've seen a shotgun proof version on the open market yet. S1
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#19
Now the schools will be getting into the act soon......................

[Image: aria_c10764720130308120100.jpg]

[Image: gv030813dAPR20130308064516.jpg]
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#20
This Rand Paul vs McCain/Graham food fight has quickly reached critical mass. And as mentioned by Buzz in his rant thread, the Leftists are also getting in on it, in order to begin tearing down a potential candidate for 2016. To the Left, an ounce of prevention is always worth more than a pound of cure.

But concerning the Ruling Class in the DOP, and make no mistake about this not being bigger than just McCain/Graham, they are really in an uproar over the audacity of a freshman senator making such waves that they consider totally needless. John Hawkins has this article about it all to point out the battle lines being drawn.

Quote:Rand Paul and the Rest of You Damn Conservatives Need to Get Off John McCain's Lawn!

I asked the president, can you kill an American on American soil, it should have been an easy answer. It’s an easy question. It should have been a resounding, an unequivocal, “No.” The president’s response? He hasn’t killed anyone yet. -- Rand Paul


I do not believe that question deserves an answer. -- Lindsey Graham


Mr. Holder’s letter answers Mr. Rand’s question, “Does the president have the authority to use a weaponized drone to kill Americans not engaged in combat on U.S. soil. The answer to that question is 'no.’”-- Jay Carney


I don’t think that what happened yesterday is helpful to the American people. -- John McCain


Poor, poor John McCain and Lindsey Graham. Here they were discussing new tax hikes and amnesty with Barack Obama over a sumptuous dinner and that rakish scamp Rand Paul made it impossible for them to enjoy the fine cuisine.

It was bad enough that he was picking a public fight with Barack Obama, but that scalawag actually confronted Obama over a constitutional issue! Didn't he understand that just isn't done in Washington?

Worse yet, Rand Paul won and he WON BIG! He made Obama look bad, got Democratic Senator Ron Wyden to join in on his filibuster, and he thrilled the conservative base in the process. Obviously, exciting conservatives is a terrible idea because John McCain didn't take a single stand that electrified conservatives in his entire presidential campaign and look how well that turned out!

As a result of this whole fiasco, the Obama Administration is now admitting that it doesn’t have the right to use a drone to kill American citizens on American soil. Is that really the road Republicans want to go down? High profile confrontations with the Democrats on conservative issues directly relating to the Constitution that can be turned into big political winners?

That's certainly not the formula George W. Bush used in his second term. John McCain and Mitt Romney didn't go that way either. No, they stuck to a tried and true formula. They showed their bipartisan spirit by being tougher on other Republicans than their Democrat opponents. When they did disagree with their opponents, they used lots of forgettable boiler plate language to make sure it didn't stick in anybody's mind. No sir, they didn't go in for any of these flashy attention-grabbing tactics like marathon filibusters.

Moreover, doesn't Rand Paul understand that the Republican Party's consensus strategy is to stay perpetually on defense? The Democrats attack and we spend all our time explaining that we're not horrible people. If a Republican in D.C. does fire back, we have to make sure that it's so boring that no one even remembers what was said five minutes later. After all, effective criticism gets the attention of the liberals in the press and they might say mean things about us. If it really scores points, Rachel Maddow might even call you a racist and David Frum might write that people like you are ruining the Republican Party. Are we really going to win that way?

Of course, not! Ideally, we'd just retreat on every issue, but these doggone conservatives who vote Republicans into office keep demanding that the politicians they send to D.C. actually represent their values and interests. How unreasonable can you get? Everybody knows the way that Republicans win is by convincing everyone that they're just like the Democrats, but not quite as a bad. Then when the Democrats screw up badly enough, people will realize that we're the lesser of two evils and then we'll get into office and prove it!

Granted, there are other establishment approved tactics we can pursue: Like talking tough about how we're not ever going to give in on principles and then folding or making lots of noise about how horrible Obama's cabinet nominees are before we allow them to be confirmed. It's also perfectly acceptable for Republican politicians to whine that Democrats aren't being fair, call for more bipartisanship, or to promise to do the right thing later on in exchange for doing more of the wrong thing now.

Really, that's the worst thing about Rand Paul's irresponsible little stunt. Twitter and Facebook were going wild, people were tuning into C-SPAN for hours at a time to watch, Libertarians were saying nice things about a Republican, and conservatives across the country loved it. When you create that kind of energy and on top of it, you WIN, it can only lead to demands for more of the same.

Is that really a road we want to go down? Actually trying to succeed? After all, trying to win is hard! The liberal mainstream media will criticize you if you're effective. The comfortable same old, same old has to change. You can't keep relying on the same well connected consultants, leaders, and old faces that keep failing and you have to turn to new voices. Isn't it better to be thought of as reasonable, moderate fellows who lose honorably* while the country slides into oblivion than it is to actually strive for victory? John McCain and Lindsey Graham think so and it's EXACTLY that kind of approach that has been causing the Republican Party to lose.


* I couldn't have stated this better - I'm looking forward to Jeb Bush being the next reasonable, moderate Republican to lead us to an honorable loss. - Frank J. Fleming
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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