Poll: Should Concealed Carry Gun Owners Attend Crisis Training?
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Should Concealed Carry Gun Owners Attend Crisis Training?
#1
Diane Sawyer and ABC News, along with the Bethlehem Pennsylvania Police, conducted an experiment with average citizens, some with gun exposure in their lifetimes and some without prior exposure, that would receive gun training without any crisis training. (Take under consideration that the gun training exceeded the normal limits of what would be normal.)

The news show showed four people being put to the test; the test is where the subject was placed in to a classroom situation, while the subject is told that he/she would have an actual gun on them (the bullets have been replaced with plastic ones filled with paint.). Eventually while the instructor talked about protective gear, a man would come in to the room acting crazy and shooting at the instructor and then start shooting at everyone else. What was interesting were the results of those subjects:

Joey: when he went for his gun, he couldn't get the weapon out of the holster.

Danielle: did the best, but she had her body in the wrong position for combat with a firearm; she thought she shot the fake assailant in the head but it was only in the leg.

Brian: actually froze with his elbow on the desk.

Chris: (a person with most exposure to guns all of his life.) did the most logical thing and hit the floor. (I'm not going to make fun of this person; I would have done the very same thing myself, but there a lot of gun owners that think they would not do what Chris did, and I disagree.)

The point of this thread is: Should Concealed Carry Gun Owners Attend Crisis Training?

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#2
How do you think these individuals would have reacted in crisis where they had no weapon to protect themselves?
The true purpose of democracy is not to select the best leaders — a clearly debatable obligation — but to facilitate the prompt and peaceful removal of obviously bad ones. 
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#3
(01-20-2013, 01:34 PM)WarBicycle Wrote: How do you think these individuals would have reacted in crisis where they had no weapon to protect themselves?
Logically? I would have hit the floor just like Chris did. What else can most people do when a person walks in to a room with that gun set and ready to go. But what was interesting was that Chris has had experience with guns and he didn't even try to pull his out after hitting the floor.

It's one thing to take gun training and another to be mentally prepared to use it. I agree with Glenn Dorning (instructor) that it isn't easy; police train at that all the time. S5
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#4
You can take all the gun-training in the world, and still be unable to protect yourself. All having a gun does is increase the likelihood of survival. Of course the better trained a person is in anything is to the good, but having a gun, itself, can be a positive means of survival. At CJI, we taught gun-owners not to confront home intruders, even when armed, because you can never known when another one pops out of the woodwork behind you. You make noise, let them know you are armed, and call for backup.
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#5
Wm is correct!

I would like to add that if you're not prepared to kill, GTFO and don't even bother. Keep your shit together (as in your gun cared for, your spare ammo handy, and all of it accessible), your head on a swivel, hone your sixth sense so you can trust it, trust no one and no location, and be ready to kill anyone you meet.

Entering into a gun fight with the average footpad or hardened criminal is basically going into combat. Like war, you can train people all you want, but some people don't have it in them regardless. Furthermore, making people take classes and jump through endless hoops to defend themselves can be pointless. What are you going to do, say no? Let people defend themselves, and while some may not be perfect at it, the onus is on them, not some asshole with a mind to regulate everyone.
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#6
What bothers me about Grizz's approach is he just doesn't consider the God given right of all humanity to defend themselves from evil.

IF I had been there, it is very likely I'd have shot myself in the foot. THAT doesn't matter, God gave me the right not to be a victim like the Jews in the holocaust, I have the right to defend myself.

The fact I'd probably fail isn't THE point, the fact if a violent bastard DID do that near me, maybe I'd get lucky and shoot his jaws off.

I personally have observed(on film) a cop fail to hit a perp 6 feet away emptying his magazine, the gist of this show then would be cops ought not be armed either because they suck at marksmanship under pressure and they probably do.
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#7
(01-21-2013, 05:04 PM)Palladin Wrote: What bothers me about Grizz's approach is he just doesn't consider the God given right of all humanity to defend themselves from evil.
S17 I must say I love this one. Please explain where in this thread or this forum where I wish to disarm people toatally. Indeed. Go ahead.
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#8
Grizz,

It seems self evident to me. This video is about pistols, not "assault weapons". Coupled with your other posts, it's obvious you think people should tolerate the state being armed and hope bad, violent folks be nice.
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#9
Yea, not much explanation needed. What would you do if they didn't take the training? Tell them no, you have no right to use a firearm in self-defense outside the home?

Pat made a very salient point. It isn't up to someone other than a particular individual to decide if that individual needs training. Nor is it up to them to tell that individual "no, you cannot carry".
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#10
In all fairness to Grizz, the subject has merit. But lack of training is one thing that could be better worked with, and the right to defend one's self is another. My only problem with this is that perhaps others are insinuating that lower degrees of training exclude those individuals the right to own and use firearms.

Also, guns are like other machines that can wind up killing humans,......if used improperly.

But remember this, the Founders payed particular attention to the right to own and bear arms, because it is a direct insurance policy for the citizenry to be able to prevent a tyrannical government. Other machines, such as automobiles, table saws, etc, were not in the Founder's mind, and not because they were not invented back then, but because they would have no direct bearing on the need to have that very insurance policy mentioned above. That's why firearms were specifically included in the Constitution, and only behind the right to free speech and worship. It was just that important, and the citizenry should all keep this in mind.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#11
(01-21-2013, 07:20 PM)Grizzly Wrote:
(01-21-2013, 05:04 PM)Palladin Wrote: What bothers me about Grizz's approach is he just doesn't consider the God given right of all humanity to defend themselves from evil.
S17 I must say I love this one. Please explain where in this thread or this forum where I wish to disarm people toatally. Indeed. Go ahead.

Grizz, just who is charged with making all these decisions to partially disarm the citizenry? And where will it end, once the beast wants more, and finally even more?

One thing you, and other well meaning Statists, almost always fail to a fault, is that you actually think the State, and bureaucrats, are far better at telling us all what is best for our own good.

And what will it finally take for you to finally be mugged with reality? There are far too many instances in history, where sophisticated and cultured societies were enslaved by tyrants, when they though that it would never happen to them. Germany in the 1930s is a classic example.

Do you like living under the constant benevolent threat of tyranny, all because you placed your faith in the Grand Entity of Friendly Fascism?

And do you buy insurance for your automobile, home, health, or other things? Do you invest for the future? And if you do, why would you ever wish to restrict others from taking out specific insurance against tyranny, all because of a few bad apples? This is a complex issue, and needs some serious Adult thinking, not some emotional adolescent mentality that so often plagues the Left, all because they haven't allowed their brains to mature along with their bodies.
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#12
To require all sorts of rules and regulations begins the pile up of laws and bureaucracy that ultimately leads to a de facto ban as opposed to an outright ban. If it is too hard to carry a gun, then many people won't do it, and liberty suffers despite having a "right".

On an unrelated note:

The other day I heard an idiot say that those live by the gun die by the gun. So I told them those that live without guns die by those who have them all the time, and as well as suffer robbery, rape and extortion, and that this person was being very idiotic or simply "ignorantly creative".

Oh, people.
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#13
(01-22-2013, 09:57 PM)Gunnen4u Wrote: To require all sorts of rules and regulations begins the pile up of laws and bureaucracy that ultimately leads to a de facto ban as opposed to an outright ban.

"de facto" ban effectively describes what is currently occurring. The shelves are totally bare. And even if you can find anything ... if you are an abused woman trying to get 'effective' protection for yourself or your children from psycho boyfriends, husbands and stalkers, etc.. you are subject to about a one week delay due to background check backlogs. Calling 911 only increases the odds that your corpses will be discovered before they get too badly decomposed. I feel very bad for anyone in that kind of imminent danger ... because they are 'effectively' screwed.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#14
Assuming they are buying from a gun store. I imagine that since the brick and mortar market cannot fill the demand, the private sale market will. I imagine millions of guns are being sold in private transfers right now as people who own multiple firearms take advantage of the empty shelves to make a bit of money selling to those who have no guns at all. If private transfers have gone up, I like to think of that as a very good thing I guess. More private transfers = more people get armed without involving the gov't.

Anyhow, I hate all the Johnny-come-lately stockpilers and gun buyers. Assholes should have been doing this shit for the past few years like I have. I am just eating my popcorn and watching the market chaos.

An SR-556 goes for $2500 now. :lol: That's about a 200% markup of original sale price. :lol:
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#15
Another thought is the basic "gun culture." In a hunting lifestyle - or situations where people grow up with vicious animals around them - they mature into knowing how to use weapons by total immersion. We have vicious animals all around us all the time - especially in the inner cities - and have never needed access to guns more; yet the culture has been artificially weened away from guns. Nowadays there is more need of remedial training to use firearms - but the cause is the bureaucrats who took the guns away in the first place.
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#16
John,

I agree training is a great idea, I just don't think that's Grizz's main goal, I think he would agree to arm the state and not the people, with possible exceptions for himself, left wing politicians like Obama himself, etc.
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#17
(01-23-2013, 01:54 PM)WmLambert Wrote: Another thought is the basic "gun culture." In a hunting lifestyle - or situations where people grow up with vicious animals around them - they mature into knowing how to use weapons by total immersion. We have vicious animals all around us all the time - especially in the inner cities - and have never needed access to guns more; yet the culture has been artificially weened away from guns. Nowadays there is more need of remedial training to use firearms - but the cause is the bureaucrats who took the guns away in the first place.

You know something? I've noticed that people who grow up with guns in a positive environment never do most of these shootings? It is usually some suburbanite white kid or asian. We should ban suburbanites.
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#18
(01-23-2013, 06:26 PM)Gunnen4u Wrote: You know something? I've noticed that people who grow up with guns in a positive environment never do most of these shootings? It is usually some suburbanite white kid or asian. We should ban suburbanites.

If this was a rational debate, we would accept that there are some major wiring problems in people ... but instead of trying to identify and mitigate them we get sucked into an agenda that involves 'banning' steel and plastic and lead. I don't believe in the "they just snapped" theory ... it's a diversion ... when Holmes' trial get underway, there will probably be a lot revealed about his dysfunction ... it will be part of an overall strategy to save his skin. The road map may not have been as crystal clear as Klebold and Harris .. but it is generally there for all to see. I'd agree in one aspect of your 'suburbanite' theory ... there's a transient nature to it. There are huge numbers of folks that don't really establish much grounding in their communities ... who get to know their neighbors ... and their kids ... people who become attached and vested enough to care ... and that's a major structural pathology in our society.

I went to high school with a kid that murdered his family in the late '70s. ... his Mom survived ... and I can't imagine how horrible that must have been ... dad and sister weren't so lucky ... completely senseless ... Everybody that had ever talked to him pretty much knew he had a screw loose ... but nobody ever figured it was THAT loose. I don't subscribe to trigger locks and 'mandatory' storage laws ... but parents of kids like this need to have enough common sense to have things locked down and that should include 'non-controversial' items like car keys as well.
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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#19
(01-23-2013, 10:28 PM)mr_yak Wrote: I went to high school with a kid that murdered his family in the late '70s. ... his Mom survived ... and I can't imagine how horrible that must have been ... dad and sister weren't so lucky ... completely senseless ... Everybody that had ever talked to him pretty much knew he had a screw loose ... but nobody ever figured it was THAT loose. I don't subscribe to trigger locks and 'mandatory' storage laws ... but parents of kids like this need to have enough common sense to have things locked down and that should include 'non-controversial' items like car keys as well.

Sounds like some advanced form of "Natural Selection" going on here. S5
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"Falsehood flies, and truth comes limping after it" - Jonathan Swift, 1710
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#20
Not so much. Out of curiosity, I just looked it up at the Dept. of Corrections website ... he was released from his "life sentence" last October ... so even in the middle of winter, that particular gene pool is apparently still open for buisness. Go figure eh?
"Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want and deserve to get it good and hard."
-- Henry Mencken
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