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Michigan to Go "Right to Work"?
#21
I think most folks are blind to the other paradigm. Poor or wealthy or in between. We like to attribute evil to them. Poor do wealthy, wealthy do poor.

If it weren't for unions, it would stun even William how awful this nation could be. Right now at the ORNL, our new main contractor is firing salaried employees( my boss was fired with 2 years remaining before retirement for example, 1910 labor mentality) and replacing them with their "good ole boys".

That's at a federal facility, I imagine private entities been doing it a long time. They can't do that to the union hourly boys and I am glad they can't.

Greed + too much power often = evil. Government or not.
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#22
Palladin, are you saying that the less educated, the less trained, the less intelligent, should get the same pay? Or should people be paid for the actual worth to society of the work they do? Should the high school dropout who works on an assembly line get the same pay as the surgeon working in a hospital? Do you really believe that this kind of imposed, enforced equality is moral (or sane)?
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#23
Ron,

I think an employer ought to pay folks "what they are worth".

They don't always do that. So, unions help a guy like me not make $32K or less a year.

I regret you wish I did, but, it's your business.

Unions don't impose anything, they negotiate for better standards of living.

Has squat to do with equality or imposition of anything.
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#24
But Palladin, the way it really works is that every time a contract comes up for renewal, the union has to push for higher and yet higher wages and more and yet more benefits, in order to justify the union's continued existence. Unions wind up forcing management to provide higher wages and benefits than are deserved, and burden the companies with higher labor costs than they can support and still be competitive. So having the state government enact "right-to-work" laws, and having some state governments provide for imposition of a financial manager who has the authority to invalidate existing contracts with unions, represent attempts to balance out the otherwise unbalanced power of the unions. Unions have played a good, valuable role at times, but they also have tendencies that lead them to hasten the time of trouble for society. I would hate to be a member of a union that took my union dues and used them to promote candidates and political causes that I abhor.
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#25
Ron,

I am 100% supportive of "right to work" laws.

I also support union rights and business rights. It's a constant balancing act and w/o unions, it is all one sided and we're back in 1910. Same with some of these public unions on the other side.

Greed sucks whether I control everything or someone else does, Ron. W/O unions, corporations would use us like borrowed mules and we know that because they DID. Just read a history book about labor conditions as recently as 1930 here.

Just like China today. You really don't want to see 70% of the people here live that that again.
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#26
(12-15-2012, 06:23 PM)Palladin Wrote: Ron,

I am 100% supportive of "right to work" laws.

I also support union rights and business rights. It's a constant balancing act and w/o unions, it is all one sided and we're back in 1910. Same with some of these public unions on the other side.

Greed sucks whether I control everything or someone else does, Ron. W/O unions, corporations would use us like borrowed mules and we know that because they DID. Just read a history book about labor conditions as recently as 1930 here.

Just like China today. You really don't want to see 70% of the people here live that that again.

Oh No! The 'Evil Robber Baron' myth. It just won't go away, thanks to the Progressive movement. Here is what the late Milton Friedman had to say about all this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmzZ8lCLhlk

The Robber Baron Myth gets it appeal from the common economic fallacy "that one man's gain must be another man's loss".
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“Socialism always begins with a universal vision for the brotherhood of man and ends with people having to eat their own pets.”
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#27
Don't use me as a punching bag if my logic is fair and correct. I support both unions and open-shop companies - but do not support mandatory unionization.

Like I already said, the IBEW works, but the UAW does not. My subcontractors I used for projects were chosen because of their ability and work product. Their internal contracts between themselves and their management were unimportant to me. Either they won the job because of a good work history and bid - or they didn't. The bottom line is if they could do the job at the best price. Simple equation.
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#28
Here's part of an exclusive interview with Governor Snyder, by FreedomWorks.

FreedomWorks EXCLUSIVE interview with Michigan Governor Rick Snyder
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“Socialism always begins with a universal vision for the brotherhood of man and ends with people having to eat their own pets.”
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#29
Governor Snyder would have more gravitas if he didn't have such a high-pitched voice. Fortunately that did not keep him from being elected. We will see if the unions will be able to bring him down in the next election. You know they will be trying.
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#30
(12-16-2012, 04:08 PM)Ron Lambert Wrote: Governor Snyder would have more gravitas if he didn't have such a high-pitched voice. Fortunately that did not keep him from being elected. We will see if the unions will be able to bring him down in the next election. You know they will be trying.

If the state shows a budget surplus under the governor, it will be difficult to get rid of him. The Tea Party, and FreedomWorks will also be aiding him in his run for reelection.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
“Socialism always begins with a universal vision for the brotherhood of man and ends with people having to eat their own pets.”
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#31
He ought to be POTUS if he can do that.
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#32
Snyder exceeded my expectations before the election. There were many state-wide proposals on the ballot that were written and heavily funded by the Democrats and unions, and rather poorly explained and debunked by the Governor. Yet, after the dust settled, all the proposals were defeated.

Propoasl 6, was Matty Moroun's bill, an overt attempt to block the Canadian funded construction of a new bridge and Michigan infrastructure. Moroun owns the present Ambassador Bridge, and although a new bridge wouldn't adversely affect his, he spent millions and flooded the airwaves with misleading commercials. The voters turned it down, as well as all the pro-Union proposals that were virtually unopposed.
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#33
Here's Dan Mitchell's thinking on this: Right-to-Work Laws Shouldn’t Exist, so Why Am I Happy about What Happened in Michigan?.

Quote:I was very critical of the General Motors bailout since it largely was designed to give undeserved special benefits to the UAW union. I’m also very down of teacher unions because they sabotage reforms that would help poor children trapped in failed government schools.

And I’m definitely opposed to the excessive pay and benefits that politicians grant to bureaucrats in exchange for votes and money from government employee unions (as cleverly depicted in this great Michael Ramirez cartoon).

So why, then, do I have mixed feelings about the recently enacted right-to-work law in Michigan?

Here’s some of what I wrote almost 25 years ago for the Villanova Law Review, beginning with my general philosophy on the role of government in labor markets.

Quote:…government should not interfere with certain personal decisions, including the freedom of employers and employees to contract freely, unfettered by labor regulations. …My position is one of strict neutrality. The government should not take side in employer-employee issues. …this is a question of property rights. If another person owns a business, I do not have a right to interfere with his choices as to what he does with his property – so long as he does not interfere with my rights of life, liberty, and property.

That’s all fine and well. Standard libertarian boilerplate, one might even say, and I’ve certainly expressed these views on television (see here, here, and here).

But then I explore some implications. If you believe in a system based on property rights and private contracts, then right-to-work laws are an unjust form of intervention.

Quote:…a property rights perspective also would reject so-called right-to-work laws which infringe upon the employers’ freedom of contract to hire only union members which is something employers may wish to do since it can lower transactions costs. …Some would argue that nobody should be forced to join a union as a condition of employment. The relevant issue in this instance, however, is not whether one can be forced to join a union, because a person cannot; if he does not like the union, he can refuse the job. The real issue is whether a business and its employees should have the freedom to choose to sign contracts which have union membership as a condition of employment.

All that being said, I’m glad Michigan just enacted a right-to-work law. I know it’s not ideal policy, but my rationale is that most government labor laws (such as the National Labor Relations Act and the Norris–La Guardia Act) tilt the playing field in favor of unions.

So until that glorious day when we get government out of labor markets, I view right-to-work laws as a second-best alternative. They’re a form of intervention that partially compensates for other forms of intervention.

A good analogy is that I don’t like tax loopholes, but I like the fact that they enable people to keep more of the money they earn. The ideal system, of course, would be a simple and fair flat tax. But in the absence of real reform, I don’t want politicians to get rid of preferences if it means they get more of our money to waste. Deductions should only be eliminated if they use every penny of additional revenue to lower tax rates.

Returning to what happened in Michigan, let’s close with an amusing cartoon that mocks Obama’s dismal record on jobs.

[Image: cartoon-right-to-work.jpg?w=500]
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“Socialism always begins with a universal vision for the brotherhood of man and ends with people having to eat their own pets.”
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#34
Right to work only means a union must do a good job of serving it's members or they leave. I think that means better unions, not worse unions.
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#35
The number of states with Right-to-Work laws, is about to increase once more.

West Virginia was the last one to join the pack, but with the Dumbasses in control of so many state legislatures, this will almost certainly be where the greatest change is made.

Quote:[Image: rtw_map_2016.jpg]

JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. (AP) — Republicans are poised to use their newly attained capitol dominance to make Missouri the 27th right-to-work state prohibiting mandatory union fees. That is unless Kentucky’s recently crowned GOP majorities can beat them to it.

The race to expand right-to-work laws is just one of several ways that Republicans, who strengthened their grip on power in the November elections, are preparing to reshape state laws affecting workplaces, classrooms, courtrooms and more during 2017.

As President-elect Donald Trump leads an attempted makeover in Washington, Republican governors and state lawmakers will be simultaneously pushing an aggressive agenda that limits abortion, lawsuits and unions, cuts business taxes and regulations, and expands gun rights and school choice.

Republicans will hold 33 governors’ offices, have majorities in 33 legislatures and control both the governor’s office and legislature in 25 states — their most since 1952. Democrats will control both the governor’s office and legislature in only about a half-dozen states; the rest will have politically divided governments.

“Really, the sky’s kind of the limit,” said Sean Lansing, chief operating officer at Americans for Prosperity, the conservative group bankrolled partly by billionaire industrialists Charles and David Koch. “It’s really the best opportunity in quite some time to accomplish a lot of big ticket items — not just in one or two states, but in five, 10 or 15.”
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Republicans still could grapple with some internal dissention, because such issues as lawsuit limits, union powers and school choice don’t always split along party lines. But in states where they now control both the legislative and executive branches, Republicans no longer will have an excuse if their agenda stalls.

“You could always blame it on a Democratic governor for killing it before,” said Republican state Sen. Brian Munzlinger of Missouri. Now “it’s up to us to get it done.”
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“Socialism always begins with a universal vision for the brotherhood of man and ends with people having to eat their own pets.”
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