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Afghanistan War Is Unwinnable
#21
Fredledingue Wrote:The difference between Obama and Nixon is that Obama has lived in a muslim country and is closer, albeit still far off, to the Afghan/asian mentality and understand better the situation.

Bush didn't get it at all. Obama quickely terminated Iraq to concentrate on the real threat of this century.
The taliban are not choirboys, they are not merely a different political block (like the commies in the 60's), they are a potentialy expanding fanatic force of death and oppression.
If we don't want to find half of the muslim world talibanized in 20 years, we must kill them now.

The goal is not al-Qaida anmore but Stratfor failed to point out the other and no less important goal that appeared.

Bush got it. 'The Muslim' get's nothing. You do not see the longer plan. Those Taliban that are killed are replaced by twenty more. They are not going to run out of Taliban. It is now a Political War. Done to curry favor with some, distract others, provide cover for other activities and create a mental condition for the Future. Once this repeat of Nam get's going there will be enough deaths and enough turmoil that no one will ever want to do it again.
You think 'The Caliph' is that smart? Think again. He is cunning but not smart. Just about everything he has done to this point has been based on a Game Plan with no deviation. He can't he is not flexible.
No You misjudge, deliberately so, President Bush and what he knew.
You thin Iraq had not impact? Think again. It is all becoming undone thanks to the Caliph. In matters beyond his playbook he is stupid, arrogant but stupid.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government
Edward Abbey
[Image: eagle_1721.png]
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#22
Fredledingue Wrote:The difference between Obama and Nixon is that Obama has lived in a muslim country and is closer, albeit still far off, to the Afghan/asian mentality and understand better the situation.

Bush didn't get it at all. Obama quickely terminated Iraq to concentrate on the real threat of this century.
The taliban are not choirboys, they are not merely a different political block (like the commies in the 60's), they are a potentialy expanding fanatic force of death and oppression.
If we don't want to find half of the muslim world talibanized in 20 years, we must kill them now.

The goal is not al-Qaida anmore but Stratfor failed to point out the other and no less important goal that appeared.
But Freddy, they already tried to do Islamic revolutions a decade ago, in Algeria, Egypt, Chechnia, etc. They all failed. Many of them taking part in those uprisings had been drilled in camps in Afghanistan, and after their uprisings collapsed, they had nowhere to run but back to Afghanistan. There was no market for Talibanisation of the Muslim world. There is none today.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#23
eaglestrike,
Bush had absolutely no knowledge of the Muslim world, nor did his team and close advisers. He, Cheney and Rummy deliberately ignored intelligence information about Iraq and went ahead.

I'm not saying it had no impact. In fact it had a big impact. At first it was detrimental to the US but they slowly fixed it and now we can say that the final result is not as bad as feared.
But it was the most stupid operation ever. Not about the military that did a tremendous job there, but about the politics who realy didn't have a clue.

The advantage of Obama as I said is that he is a kenyian who lived in Indonesia, spent some years in Hawai and finaly the last few years in the US. He knows a little bit better non-US muslim cultures than Bush and McCain.
I don't know if he is smart, but he knows better.

The huge change in the Afghan war right now is the shift of policy in Pakistan. For the first time since the WoT began, we have a Pakistanese army fighting against the taliban, and not making deals behind our back.
We don't need much to beat the taliban, but we need cooperation from the locals. The taliban had some support under Musharraff (thought Mushy always denied it, the signs were obvious). Now that they lost this support, and I think it was their only support from another country (the rest is private donations), they are done.

IMO, the arab will also soon realize that donating to the taliban is useless since they became the underdog.

Also, The new engagement rules allow the US to strike at narco traffick networks, something ignored before despite alraming signs that it was financing the taliban.

All this will make the war winnable.

Quadrat
They didn't make serious islamic revolution attempts in Algeria and Egypt. These movements were not connected with the taliban.
In Chechenya, yes, but they were defeated only because the whole army of the soviet union (Russia) poured in this region with heavy artilery and no regard for their own casuality.
In Iraq they were defeated only because they killed their allies (this demonstrate how stupid they are, however).

But if we do nothing, if we abandon the place and turn a bling eye to what happen there, in 20 years they will control the whol muslim asia and part of the non asian muslim world as well.
They don't spread only by recruiting suicide bomber or by organizing training camps, but by propagating their ideology.
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#24
Freddy,
you are a bit confused about the facts, here. There were more than 200,000 victims of the Algerian civil war, and the severity of the terror acts in Egypt against white people was only eclipsed by 9/11 and Madrid. The real head of Al Queda and brain of them Islamists, Zawahiri, is Egyptian himself. Most of them reactionaries taking part had been instructed in Afghanistan, before, while, and after the Taliban came to power there. What are you pretending? That the Taliban have replaced Al Queda as the international terror network? No, they can not spread. The rulers of Muslim countries are at least as brutal as the terrorists, and have more means.
Take the time to watch this (3 hours)
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#25
Quadrad, I can tell safely that the Front Islamiste Algerien (FIS -"S" I dont know) had no strong connection with either al-Qaida or the Taliban. It's a movement that long precede them. That date from the Algerian independance war.

In Egypt, yes it's closer to al-Qaida but it's much less importqnt in size thqn in Algeria.

But ok, you are correct that ultimately all these groups had at least one connection with al-Qaida at some point. But htey were not taliban.
Yes the muslim regimes has been tough dealing with them, for their own security.

But Talibanism is an ideology even more radical than radical islam and therefore even more dangerous.
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#26
The more radical, the fewer followers. That is the natural law that also erodes the American Republicans.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#27
Muslims are different: They like what is radical and the more it's radical, the more they think it's close to Allah's word and higher in morality.
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#28
Watched a little docu on our channel last night, about 200 Afghan kids flown out to Germany for medical treatments that are not available in Afghanistan. The charter of the Airbus that hauled them to Hamburg costs € 100,000. The reconnaissance flights of a Bundeswehr Tornado are € 200,000 each. I wonder which one contributes more to end that war. Awful what amount of money is burned for that lie.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#29
The best way to win, in any muslim country, is to fence it off from the rest of the world. The money it would cost to produce the fence, would be far less than what we are spending in other venues.

Just fense them in, and let them kill each other. They are very good at that.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#30
Fredledingue Wrote:eaglestrike,
Bush had absolutely no knowledge of the Muslim world, nor did his team and close advisers. He, Cheney and Rummy deliberately ignored intelligence information about Iraq and went ahead.

I'm not saying it had no impact. In fact it had a big impact. At first it was detrimental to the US but they slowly fixed it and now we can say that the final result is not as bad as feared.
But it was the most stupid operation ever. Not about the military that did a tremendous job there, but about the politics who realy didn't have a clue.

The advantage of Obama as I said is that he is a kenyian who lived in Indonesia, spent some years in Hawai and finaly the last few years in the US. He knows a little bit better non-US muslim cultures than Bush and McCain.
I don't know if he is smart, but he knows better.

The huge change in the Afghan war right now is the shift of policy in Pakistan. For the first time since the WoT began, we have a Pakistanese army fighting against the taliban, and not making deals behind our back.
We don't need much to beat the taliban, but we need cooperation from the locals. The taliban had some support under Musharraff (thought Mushy always denied it, the signs were obvious). Now that they lost this support, and I think it was their only support from another country (the rest is private donations), they are done.

IMO, the arab will also soon realize that donating to the taliban is useless since they became the underdog.

Also, The new engagement rules allow the US to strike at narco traffick networks, something ignored before despite alraming signs that it was financing the taliban.

All this will make the war winnable.
That is your opinion, not fact. He was well briefed. They ignored nothing but 'The Muslim' is, and deliberately so.
You know nothing about what they knew beyond what the Progressive Media Spoon Fed you. How is the Kool Aid? They went ahead based on support from the entire Congress and ignored no one. That is a fact jack not what your opining. It was not 'at first' detrimental to the US. It enjoyed massive support, also a fact. The Libs attacked it along with the good lap dog 'Media'. After the Propaganda War got going full swing it was deemed a bad thing by some of you. Not me and not a lot of us that think as I do and I mean a Lot not some imaginary minority that he Media would like to make you think exist out here.
The impact was bigger than you can or are willing to know. So big some it survives the bumbling fools that currently inhabit 1600 Pennsylvania Av.
It was not the most stupid operation ever, that lays with the 'Muslim' and his current kowtowing to the Chinese, Muslims, Russian, Progressives, and anyone else opposed to the USA. The operation was a success, until 'The Muslim' got involved and with his penchant for screwing up anything he touches he has done so in Irag and Afghanistan where he plays with the Soldiers lives like they were Chess pawns not real people.
You back a loser with no expertise and paint him as a winner with all kinds of acumen. There is nothing to your words beyond unsupportable opinion based on ideology.
The Research, if done properly, will not support any of your contentions.
Big deal he is a Kenyan,(Thanks for admitting he is not an American) so what?
That makes him an expert? I do not think so. I presume you were born here. That makes you an expert on relations with American Indians or Italian Americans or Nisei? I think not.
What it makes him is a 'Muslim'.
McCain was a fool but he was not stupid, he had a much better grasp of the situation, one that far exceeds the grasp 'The Muslim' has which is no grasp just empathy. Remember: " I will stand with the Muslims".
There is no substance to anything you state beyond the War is unwinnable, After that you lose it. It is not winnable simply because 'The Muslim' does not want to win it.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government
Edward Abbey
[Image: eagle_1721.png]
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#31
quadrat Wrote:Freddy,
you are a bit confused about the facts, here. There were more than 200,000 victims of the Algerian civil war, and the severity of the terror acts in Egypt against white people was only eclipsed by 9/11 and Madrid. The real head of Al Queda and brain of them Islamists, Zawahiri, is Egyptian himself. Most of them reactionaries taking part had been instructed in Afghanistan, before, while, and after the Taliban came to power there. What are you pretending? That the Taliban have replaced Al Queda as the international terror network? No, they can not spread. The rulers of Muslim countries are at least as brutal as the terrorists, and have more means.
Take the time to watch this (3 hours)
Why not one million? :^o
Those were estimates and it was between 150 to 200 thou and guess who made the estimates? None of it was confirmed.
Quote:The number of killed in the war is highly uncertain, between 70,000 and 200,000.There is politics in both putting it low, as well as high. The official numbers of 150,000 and 200,000 are highly questionable. Even in 2002, about 1,000 people were killed in clashes.

http://looklex.com/e.o/algerian_civil_war.htm
Quote:In the 1990s Algerian politics was dominated by the struggle involving the military and Islamist militants. In 1992 a general election won by an Islamist party was annulled, heralding a bloody civil war in which more than 150,000 people were slaughtered.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/c...790556.stm

It's all hyperbole and guess.
As usual your post reflect the emptiness of your knowledge and the fullness of your ideology.
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government
Edward Abbey
[Image: eagle_1721.png]
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#32
Some things worth considering:

1) eaglestrikes is right that its a political war, that is, a war fought by Obama to gain him political support. At least, he used it to gain points in the election, and now must at least show *some* effort before throwing the towel in.

2) I believe the war is unwinnable; the Taliban will fight to the death - they have no choice, afterall - and this will create American casualties unacceptable to the American public.

3) But is that such a bad thing? The Taliban and al-Qaeda are no longer colluding with each other in Afghanistan. Al-Qaeda are not a power in Afghanistan. There is not a strong enough reason to keep fighting the Taliban.

Now, al-Qaeda still has a base of support in Pakistan, separate from the Taliban. Whether or not we should invade Pakistan to take out al-Qaeda is the real question.
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#33
EagleStrike,
You think that Bush was a brillant strategist and Obama a looser, I won't argue about that because, frankly, it has more to do with your political side than about facts on the ground.
1/ If you are a republican (conservative) you will say that Bush is victorious because he erased from the map the regime of Saddam Hussein, and this forever and that he has also overcone the various terrorist groups and militia operating afterwards there.
2/ If you are a democrat (Progressive) you will say that Obama is now backpedalling on Bush mistakes, and try to change a policy which has cost the life of 4200 american soldiers for a non-essential issue.

If we want to have a rational view on the events, there are tons of facts that would be too long to discuss here. I'm leaving for holliday tomorrow I have no time listing them all now.

About the Great Effect, I think that the Iraq War effect is dwarfted and incomplete. To have full result Bush had to invade Iran immediately after or at the same time he invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.
But of course that would have nmeant a type of war of a higher scale than what we have seen and a larger sacrifice in US soldiers lifes.

Quadrad
Offering health care to the future taliban fighters is not the best way to win the war in the long term. Using fighter jets to bomb them is.
But you also need good humanitarian deeds to gain public support in the West. I think that the public support in the East thanks to this action is at best minimal because these poeple have no idea of the cost involved and think that you d it to be forgiven the crimes you have done in their country, that you feel guilty for their situation.
Perhaps at the individual level, that of the families of these kids, there is some recognition, but not at the level of the general public opinion in Afghanistan.

Anon
The war is winnable only to the extent the local Pakistanese and Afghan population fight it.
If the US is alone on the battlefield it's lost in advance.
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#34
Fredledingue Wrote:EagleStrike,
You think that Bush was a brillant strategist and Obama a looser, I won't argue about that because, frankly, it has more to do with your political side than about facts on the ground.
1/ If you are a republican (conservative) you will say that Bush is victorious because he erased from the map the regime of Saddam Hussein, and this forever and that he has also overcone the various terrorist groups and militia operating afterwards there.
2/ If you are a democrat (Progressive) you will say that Obama is now backpedalling on Bush mistakes, and try to change a policy which has cost the life of 4200 american soldiers for a non-essential issue.

If we want to have a rational view on the events, there are tons of facts that would be too long to discuss here. I'm leaving for holliday tomorrow I have no time listing them all now.

About the Great Effect, I think that the Iraq War effect is dwarfted and incomplete. To have full result Bush had to invade Iran immediately after or at the same time he invaded Iraq and Afghanistan.
But of course that would have nmeant a type of war of a higher scale than what we have seen and a larger sacrifice in US soldiers lifes.
You better look at the fingers pointing back at you on that first sentence.
I said nothing about brilliant or even strategist. This is where you lose it. You read not between the lines but into them. President Bush listened and learned and took all available information. The Strategy was neither his nor Cheney's. It was their assimilation of the facts. Now you point out where there facts were wrong or what facts were left out. FDR conceived no strategy for WW II Churchill did most of that and what America contributed was mostly Marshall.
I do not think 'The Muslim' is a loser. I know he is.
You are presenting strictly from your political side. The Difference is I do the research whether I like the results or not, you do not.
I am not Republican, I am Conservative.
I also say President Bush screwed up Fiscally in a number of ways. I have said so many times. I have said he made initial errors in his presentation of his fiscal plans. I see nothing in the war time Operation plans that indicate a problem in not knowing something. Are you going to continue to spout or offer some supporting evidence.
It was not then or now up to him to eliminate the terrorist groups. Can't be done. Cut em down to size. Yes he did that. You going to show otherwise?
No time? Off to a Holiday?
Enjoy. When you get back do not attempt to place yourself as neutral and just an observer of time and movement. You are biased and you offer little to support your contentions.
Great Effect? No. But the effect was greater than you admit or understand.,
A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government
Edward Abbey
[Image: eagle_1721.png]
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#35
You can all leave Afghanistan.

But you'll all be going back.
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#36
What incentive do they have to take on the West? Do they believe that you, or I will convert to Islam and grow fuzzy beards?
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#37
quadrat Wrote:What incentive do they have to take on the West?

God.
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#38
Er, no. That's the funny part. 99.9% of all Muslims of this world believe those Taliban, also called Mujaheddin, do not do Jihad, but Fasad. An abomination of Islam. I suggest you look the terms up. They can't even spread amongst Muslims unless attacked by cowardly powers such as the US or Israel. Their Quran does not say they must attack us, and force us into submission.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#39
er no. You didn't ask me about 99.9% of Muslims, nor was the subject 99% of Muslims. You asked me (and the subject is) about the Taliban, and inarguably they use God as incentive.

If you're going to play such mindless games or, alternatively, if your own lack of intelligence is going to betray you to the point that you can't recall the question you asked a couple of hours ago when it's sitting there in print or understand the subject matter at hand then why not do yourself and everyone else a favour and STFU?
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#40
Why don't you stick to speech practice of Latin because your peabrain does not provide for more, teacher? misera - miserae - miserae - miseram - miserae - miserā. They are sturdy conservatives who want nothing but to rule their own valley, and they have no means to hold anything bigger together. Leave them alone, and they leave you alone.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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