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Göbekli Tepe
#1
Deviating a tad from the title, here's some interesting stuff on an archaeological dig that might cause a major re-think on how humanity developed.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/20...aking.html
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#2
(08-26-2012, 04:33 PM)Palladin Wrote: Deviating a tad from the title...

You call this a tad? S13

Andrew Collins should be celebrating today, this (as well as the recent language phylogeny study) confirms his theory nicely.
Government is necessary because people left unchecked will do evil.

The government is composed of people left unchecked


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#3
I went and split this from the other thread, as you rightly suggested Patrick. For more on this site, you can read the Nat Geo article right here: Göbekli Tepe:The Birth of Religion. There are also more nice drawings to go along with it all.

But note the part in the article, at the end, which states:

Quote:Schmidt emphasizes that further research on Göbekli Tepe may change his current understanding of the site's importance. Even its age is not clear—Schmidt is not certain he has reached the bottom layer. "We come up with two new mysteries for every one that we solve," he says. Still, he has already drawn some conclusions. "Twenty years ago everyone believed civilization was driven by ecological forces," Schmidt says. "I think what we are learning is that civilization is a product of the human mind."

So we need to keep all this in mind. But lets say the eleven plus thousand years is correct. That would mean this site to be a 'Younger Dryas' site. In other words, the hunter-gatherers, or budding agriculturalists, were forced here because of the shift in weather patterns.

So with that in mind, just where did they originate? To my mind the answer is clear. They originated from northern Turkey, in and around the Black Sea basin, where agriculture would have been easy to work into one's livelihood. So I am guessing that agriculture began with the end of the last ice age, and just prior to Younger Dryas. And the Black Sea basin is the best candidate of anywhere in the world. And with Younger Dryas, cultures moved with the climate southward, over the Turkish highlands and into where this site existed.

But with the return of warmer weather, the center moved back northward again. The only reason why we haven't made all these revolutionary discoveries within the Black Sea basin is because almost all of it is underwater now. All those undersea sites will have to wait for more developed underwater archaeology techniques.

And then again, the site may prove to be younger than believed. Who knows at this point.
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#4
Is the Black Sea basin is hundreds of miles away, and if your Black Sea filling theory some 5,000 BC is right, there was no Black Sea around in this time. Nonetheless, a dust bowl today, must have been a lot greener in those times. Can we conclude now that God did not create the earth in 6,014 BC?
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#5
"Q", there was a huge lake there, made larger by the ice thaw run-off. Lots of water for agriculture. It was the perfect location for the domestication of plants and animals.

As for the age of the area, please remember that my name is not Ron Lambert, ok?

[Image: blacksea1.jpg]
The Black Sea with the former freshwater lake elevation (-350 feet) shown as a dotted line inside of the present sea level. Rivers flowed into the former freshwater lake from the north. The overflow of the Mediterranean Sea through the Bosporus Strait is believed to have initiated the flood which some uniformitarians believe to be the Flood of Genesis. Modified from Ross and Degens (1974, Figure 1, p. 184).

And here is a most interesting article about the flooding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JT5QH1tLPEo
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#6
I think this is a fascinating story. I am glad that this person is leaving sections untouched so that future scientists who have access to better equipment will still be able to study this virgin area. I read the article first and saw the pictures later. I was expecting a lush green environment and was surprised to see this is basically in the middle of a desert. How curious that our environment can change so drastically over a small amount of time.
[Image: 760.png]
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#7
Kris, when the climate warms and cools, the different bands of weather patterns tend to move up and down the map. That is why the Sahara was a grassy steppe around eight to ten thousand years ago

If you look at images of the planet, taking into consideration the spin of the planet, and the equator as reference, dry air moves upward at the equator, into the upper atmosphere, and travels away from the equator. Once it loses its moisture, it drops back down and repeats the process all over. And there are several of these bands that move up toward the polar regions.

[Image: GlobalCirculationBW.jpg]

As the planet warms, these circular bands stretch out and affect which part of the planet are moist and which tend to be dry. And this is particularly so in the interiour of land masses, such as EurAsia, and the American SouthWest.

At the end of the last glaciation, the bands had moved northward and the Göbekli Tepe was probably a transition zone, with the Black Sea area a decided wetter area. With the Younger Dryas period relapse that wet zone moved southward again, along the area of Göbekli Tepe, allowing for wetter conditions. But Younger Dryas only lasted about one thousand years, and when warmer temps returned, the wet zone moved back north again.

The saving grace for the Tigres Euphrates Valley is that it is a natural watershed for waters moving out of the northern mountains. If not for those two rivers, the entire area would be nothing but desert.

Lets say there really wasn't any agriculture in the Göbekli Tepe area, then there must have been so many herds of animals that a leisure class would be available to learn stone work, civic activity, and other professions that are not part of the fight to survive on a daily basis. And I have not seen this anywhere without agriculture, which allows for a concentration of people as a society.

Here's another air circulation map.

[Image: global2.jpg]

[Image: Global1.jpg]
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#8
Aliens...
[Image: 724517_f260.jpg]
It's them who brought us civilisation...
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#9
Looks like a wolf attacking a sheep to me.
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#10
Even though the gent said people worshipped, but, did not live there, as large as it is, shouldn't there be a village nearby?
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#11
(08-27-2012, 08:16 PM)Palladin Wrote: Even though the gent said people worshipped, but, did not live there, as large as it is, shouldn't there be a village nearby?

That's correct Patrick. In fact there should be a very large village nearby. And that village would have a large leisure class, because those are the ones doing the detail work making the site. I'm talking priests, artisans, leaders, etc.

And if not using agriculture, how were they able to congregate large numbers in one spot for an extended time?

Also, if you watch some of the videos, showing the stone monoliths, one of them has what is clearly a 'hoe' depicted. Now I wonder what that 'hoe' was for if not for agriculture?

My guess is that there are several key facts missing. For instance, is the site really from 10,000BC? Really? And like above, how did all this extensive site, along with the detailed relief stone carving get accomplished? This required a complex and highly organized system that one or several tribes could never have done.

And also, the thinking that the site was intentionally covered up with sand doesn't make sense. That would have taken huge numbers of people hand carrying untold thousands of sand filled baskets to end the site, not make it on the front end. I've never heard of something like that before. My guess is that as the climate shifted, and the area moved from a wet to an arid landscape, they just abandoned it, moving elsewhere. Then wind and nature covered it up over time, and it was forgotten.

Usually the simplest answer is the correct one. However, Graham Hancock, John Anthony West, Robert Schock, Robert Bouval, and some others, will tend to make this into something more exotic than it really is.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#12
Ron Wrote:Looks like a wolf attacking a sheep to me. [Image: 724517_f260.jpg]
How do you see a wolf?
Ho...! I see! If you look at the picture upsidedown, leaning your head to the left, then with some strech of the imagination you might see a wolf.
But looking at the picture normaly (verticaly) the top element is an Alien's skull, and his extensible arm under it.

You read too much children tales books, Ron... S3
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#13
An easy explanation for the covering up of the thing is the flood. I know no one much believes in the bible flood, but, there was one of biblical proportions in this region.

That makes more logic than a bunch of folks suddenly covering up their religious cult center.
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#14
Had there been a biblical flood up there, all the small stones so neatly placed into walls, would not have stood up to all that. From what I can see, those walls were indeed intact and not reconstructed during the 'dig'.

And as for the actual flood, perhaps it is a combination of several actual floods. Most certainly the catastrophic flooding of the Black Sea was one. but perhaps an impactor off the coast could have flooded the Tigris Euphrates valley. Hard to tell, but I have no doubt the biblical flood was based upon historical fact. Its just the exact details that were lost, since it was before writing could have recorded it fresh.
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#15
John,

I never saw any discussions about why the gentleman dated the stuff around 10K BC, do you have any idea?
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#16
(08-28-2012, 06:18 PM)Palladin Wrote: John,

I never saw any discussions about why the gentleman dated the stuff around 10K BC, do you have any idea?

I haven't seen any information on that either. All I have picked up was some hints of radio carbon dating, but carbon dating of what? I'll have to look into all this a bit more specifically.

Thanks for mentioning that Patrick.
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#17
http://www.forteantimes.com/features/art...ained.html

They say here they found organic material clinging to the stones and tested it
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#18
I have to tell you Patrick, that I find this place intriguing. As for the dating of the site, such tiny fragments of organic material tends to be a bit questionable. What is really going to have to be found will be either remains from a fireplace, human burials, or organic material from a local dung/trash heap.

I have no doubt that eventually one or more will be found. Especially as the site branches out from where they started.

But the interesting thing is just how different the climate was back then, as to what it is like now. In order to support all that wildlife, the climate was obviously quite wet. So a thorough history of climate during the entire Holocene should give a good indication as to when things were much more livable. And clearly the weather would have been warmer than today. The warmer the climate, the more evaporation of water into the atmosphere.

So much for Global Warming and the end of the world as we know it.
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All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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#19
Intriguing regardless of what exactly it is. If the professor is even in the ballpark, it may be the biggest super ancient establishment we may ever know of.
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#20
Somehow I still look at the Black Sea basin as being the ultimate key to man's first venture into plant and animal domestication. The entire valley was a perfect location for farming. The entire lake was originally fresh water, and all rivers and streams flowed into it. Who knows, perhaps irrigation was also tried there for the first time.

Somewhere around 10,000BC is the earliest dates for what we believe the first agriculture began. Granted it would have been primitive, most likely in the crop, because the grains would still be of a wild variety. It would take some time for human induced selective breeding to make inroads. But as crop selection made for greater crop yields, better cultivating techniques would also be developed. And I am thinking that the Black Sea lake basis would be the ideal location.

Unfortunately, its all under water now, so unless we can block the Straits and pump out the water, or develop good underwater archaeology, we will just have to guess. But until someone can come up with a better set of conditions/locations, I will go with that area as being the most important prehistorical site. But again, its a shame the Med had to swamp the basin. I'm guessing that Gobekli Tepe is a hunter-gatherer peripheral site. But thats just an educated guess.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
All men are frauds. The only difference between them is that some admit it. I myself deny it.
H. L. Mencken
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