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Why Fundamentalism is Fundamentally Wrong
#1
This letter is supposed to be going viral on the internet. And if it is, it is a classic example as to why, as a Christian, I am totally opposed to Christian Fundamentalism.

It is worse than just intellectual laziness: it is potentially dangerous, because it makes excuses for things that are not understood properly. And this letter is a classic example.

Quote:“This is a difficult, but necessary letter to write,” the unidentified father writes. “I hope your telephone call was not to receive my blessing for the degrading of your lifestyle. I have fond memories of our time together, but that is all in the past. Don’t expect any further conversations with me. No communication at all. I will not come to visit, nor do I want you in my house. You’ve made your choice, though wrong it may be. God did not intend for this unnatural lifestyle. If you choose not to attend my funeral, my friends and I will understand. Have a good birthday and good life. No present exchanges will be accepted. Goodbye, Dad.”

[Image: article-2185129-146E75D0000005DC-896_468x595.jpg]
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#2
I doubt the authenticity of the note simply because it's on the net at this time. Too convenient for the current debate.

Having said that, I knew a man who had a falling out with his daughter because she had a black child. He never has spoken to her or the kid. Maybe 15 years ago.

I also know a man who had a falling out with his son because he came home and caught him having a gay orgy. He didn't even tell me his son died and he had been a childhood friend.

Some people are just unforgiving, self righteous pricks and it isn't only fundies that are this way.

I know a Jewish family that was split in 2 over Jesus and I bet that isn't unusual. The parents weren't fundies, they weren't even religious.
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#3
Patrick, the letter was reported to have been written five years ago, and probably let out due to this Chick-Fil-A thing. If that particular example is not true, there are similar others that are. My interiour designer friend, went through exactly the same thing with his father, who never forgave him. He's dead now, and it burdens my friend. Even his mother tells him that he is wrong, but hasn't abandoned him.

Its very depressing, and one of the reasons why homosexuals are the largest group of people committing suicide.

And while religious fundamentalism is not a cause, it is definitely a 'manifestation' of the root problem. We humans resist change, and either in awe, or disdain those things we can't explain.

And fundamentalist Christians tend to give the majority of we Christians a bad name, because of this intractable unwillingness to use logic. And they use 'faith' as an excuse to deny things they can't answer. That is my problem with it.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#4
John,

I share your concerns, believe me. I think we all need some more thoughtfulness and understanding myself. All of us.
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#5
As sad as it seems, it is probably for the best that unforgiving people take themselves out of other people's lives.

There is always hope of reconciliations. Sometimes it is the unforgiver who eventually forgives, or the other person who breaks down the barriers. Nine times out of ten, it is grandchildren that bridge the troubled waters.
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#6
(08-09-2012, 08:36 PM)WmLambert Wrote: As sad as it seems, it is probably for the best that unforgiving people take themselves out of other people's lives.

There is always hope of reconciliations. Sometimes it is the unforgiver who eventually forgives, or the other person who breaks down the barriers. Nine times out of ten, it is grandchildren that bridge the troubled waters.

With that sentence in mind Bill, go back and relate it to the topic, which is about homosexuality.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#7
Are you two not also fundamendalists? All this 'the freer the market the better' shit, and 'greed is good', and selfishness desirable above anything else. When did you lose faith in humanity, and embraced this right-wing fundamentalism? I fail to see a difference between you two, and the gentleman who wrote the letter of the OP. You, like him, have a set of black and white values.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#8
"Q", you have simply got to quit staring in the mirror, and projecting yourself on to others. This is a disease that can be cured if only you would arm yourself with a sound education and a little common sense.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#9
I think he makes a salient point -- many people here are dedicated fundamentalists to their value system. And this includes those who strongly believe in the free market and other such principles. You dismiss his assertion that you do doggedly defend free market capitalism in it's purest form by calling him a projector? That side steps the point he makes.
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#10
(08-13-2012, 06:34 AM)Gunnen4u Wrote: I think he makes a salient point -- many people here are dedicated fundamentalists to their value system. And this includes those who strongly believe in the free market and other such principles. You dismiss his assertion that you do doggedly defend free market capitalism in it's purest form by calling him a projector? That side steps the point he makes.

Which points?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#11
There is never anything wrong with fundamental values. Every single person on Earth has them. The issue is what values they hold as important. Some accept incorrect preconceived notions foisted by religion as their end-all and be-all. Others use short-sighted aphorisms that sound good but never work out historically.

Using logic and consistent philosophy proved over time seems like a good place to start.

BTW, John, the issue is more than homosexuality - it is breaking of familiar boundaries. A pederast is different than bisexuality. Some kids become gay after being abused, It is the same mechanism as wife beaters coming from homes of wife-beaters.

However; whatever the disagreement - things can change over time, and people can change as well. Many people have had troubled waters bridged because the urge to see their grandkids and be a part of their lives - even as a balance to what may be seen as bad choices - overcomes the anger and sadness of separation.
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#12
(08-13-2012, 06:52 AM)John L Wrote:
(08-13-2012, 06:34 AM)Gunnen4u Wrote: I think he makes a salient point -- many people here are dedicated fundamentalists to their value system. And this includes those who strongly believe in the free market and other such principles. You dismiss his assertion that you do doggedly defend free market capitalism in it's purest form by calling him a projector? That side steps the point he makes.

Which points?

That you are a fundamentalist. But go ahead and play this game if you will.
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#13
The validity of fundamentalist values depends on where their fundamentals came from. If they came from tradition, they cannot escape ultimately turning out to be inherently "disgusting". If they come from God in an objective manner--from Scripture interpreted in an honest manner using objective methods--then they will prove superior to all other philosophies and religions of man.
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#14
(08-13-2012, 03:34 PM)Gunnen4u Wrote:
(08-13-2012, 06:52 AM)John L Wrote:
(08-13-2012, 06:34 AM)Gunnen4u Wrote: I think he makes a salient point -- many people here are dedicated fundamentalists to their value system. And this includes those who strongly believe in the free market and other such principles. You dismiss his assertion that you do doggedly defend free market capitalism in it's purest form by calling him a projector? That side steps the point he makes.

Which points?

That you are a fundamentalist. But go ahead and play this game if you will.

Oh, you mean am I fundamentally into Individual Liberty? Guilty as charged then. S5

However, this thread is really about Religious fundamentalism.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#15
John,

I spend time on theological blogs a lot and sometimes terms mean different things to different folks.

How do you define, "religious fundy"?
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#16
(08-14-2012, 05:41 PM)Palladin Wrote: John,

I spend time on theological blogs a lot and sometimes terms mean different things to different folks.

How do you define, "religious fundy"?

Someone who believes the bible as written is the unaltered, and unvarnished, truth. What was written was more than just inspiration, but directed by G-d. In other words, no allegory, figurative lessons, or general concepts; "Just the "inerrant" facts Maam."
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#17
More than that John, it means that every one else's Holy works are wrong - and probably deceptive works of Satan on top of it.
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#18
William,

I would be a fundy according to your statement to an extent. For example, I do think it was "disgusting" that motivated Mohammad to write some of what he wrote(specifically relating to Jesus and crucifixion).

John,

I agree with your view, but, I'd be a fundy to you because I do see the ancient narrative as generally historical whereas you see it as generally metaphorical.
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#19
Satan usually incorporates 98% truth along with the errors he wants to slip by us. Poison is most effective when it is added to good food.

John, anyone who does not recognize metaphor and allegory and symbolism in the Bible does not understand what it really says. But by the same token, trying to explain away something presently unfashionable and inconvenient, like the Creation and Flood narratives of Genesis, as allegory or "figurative lessons" or something similar, is not being honest with the text, and is trying to exalt the opinion of man above the Word of God. No true enlightenment can ever come to those who commit this rebellion against the authority of the Creator. As Acts 5:32 tells us, the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey God. No where in the text is there any warrant given for regarding the straightforward creation and flood narratives of Genesis as allegory or figurative lessons, etc.. Moreover, Jesus Himself referred to the Creation and flood accounts as literal. So did the Apostles. The Bible must always, above all, be allowed to interpret itself. Any other approach to interpreting Scripture will not be honored by God. The Holy Spirit cannot be given to enlighten anyone who chooses not to believe the Word of God.

Note these words in the "faith" chapter, Hebrews 11:
Quote:"By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.....But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith." (Hebrews 11:3, 6, 7; NKJV)

Here are a few statements by Jesus:

Quote:"But from the beginning of the creation, God `made them male and female.'" (Mark 10:6; NKJV)

"For in those days there will be tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the creation which God created until this time, nor ever shall be." (Mark 13:19; NKJV)

"But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be." (Matthew 24:37-39; NKJV)

And then, don't forget the explictly stated reason in the Ten Commandments WHY the Sabbath is to be observed as a divine holiday:

Quote:"For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it." (Exodus 20:11; NKJV)

Note that this was written by the finger of God Himself. It was not just the view of Moses. The Creator wrote these words. He presented His act of Creation as literal truth.
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#20
(08-15-2012, 11:58 AM)Palladin Wrote: William,

I would be a fundy according to your statement to an extent. For example, I do think it was "disgusting" that motivated Mohammad to write some of what he wrote(specifically relating to Jesus and crucifixion).

John,

I agree with your view, but, I'd be a fundy to you because I do see the ancient narrative as generally historical whereas you see it as generally metaphorical.

Not necessarily so Patrick. Almost every historical event described in the Bible is true(overall), in my opinion. Its just that a goodly portion of those events are taken from the person's personal viewpoint, at a later time, in order to explain why they occurred.

Take the story of Sodom and Gomorrah; I have absolutely no doubt they really existed. Probably called by different names, but historically accurate. But in order to explain their destruction,(most likely from an Impactor that exploded in the upper atmosphere and rained smaller parts on to the surface of the planet from the Near East, all the way into Europe,) they used the events as an opportunity to make a moral/religious point. Incidentally, scientists have pretty much pinpointed the actual event, the date, what it did, and the total spread of debris, which was several thousand miles long.

Another example is the ten commandments. My Ancient Civ professor, who specialized in Dead Sea Scrolls, showed that the original text almost exactly copies the original laws published by King Hammurabi. He actually read off the original law's points, then did the same with the Ten Commandments, and they were as close to identical as it gets. The only difference was that Hammarabi's code was 'civil' in scope, and the bible's included the religious element to it.

The bible says G-d handed it down to Moses on Mt. Sinai. That is where I take exception, and believe he actually obtained it from the Hammurabi code. And the account was written much later, and contained additives that made a religious point to the writer.

That's what I mean about all this. I was fortunate to have been taught by a genuine biblical scholar, who was classically trained. Plus, its just good common sense.

And I'm not even going to debate with Ron, because it will be a total waste of time and effort.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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