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Mars
#21
Yes but reaching the moon was much easier by comparison and just a stronger computer doesn't make a sapce vessel traveling faster.
Computers help a great deal, but they are the only sizeable technological advance that we made in 43 years.
Rocket technology is basicaly the same and we are still stuck with almost the same rocket capacity limit.

New computers and new materials doesn't make up to the difference in distance which is about 300 x longer than to the Moon.
And Mars gravitation makes also the matter more complicated.

Also the minium go-and-return trip lenght is 36 months (3 years), because Mars and Earth get close to each other only once every 18 months (1 year and half).
9 month to reach Mars, 18 month on Mars the time of a circonvolution, 9 month to come back to Earth.
You can also chose to stay 3 days on Mars, so that the trip lasts only 18 months and you get a discount.
But that would be a shame. Mars is so big.

Unless space launcher, space elevator or whatever make dramatic progress sudenly, I'd go for more robotized exploration.
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#22
Fred, I agree. Some sort of magnetic rail system, or slingshot capability from a space elevator makes far more sense. Its all about Mass. Reaction mass takes up so much space that it fills up the equation, forcing payload to be smaller.
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#23
[Image: 399437_510245058992755_2136174388_n.jpg]
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#24
Rent-a-mob. I don't believe they represent a true Martian movement.

I'm not even sure they are Martians - just illegal alien-aliens. They should be green and eight feet tall.
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#25
They are Marxians: They don't like the US and its market freedom. Certainly a small but vociferous minority. S5
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#26
That is absolutely hilarious fredle... .
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#27
I wonder why americans are always attracted by desert landscape looking like Utah? On Earth they go everywhere fighting the muslims for it.

On Mars at least they won;t face Islamists thought it's a panorama where you would expect them.

Latests from Curiosity Mars rover

[Image: 0813-curiosity-mastcam-gale-crater-wall_full_600.jpg]

[Image: curiosity-software.jpg]

and now this amazing photo:

[Image: The-Mars-Curiosity-rovers-001.jpg]
link
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#28
That is amazing: stratified rocks. Probably wind or water created, or possibly volcanic ash. It would be interesting to find out what the different layers are. Furthermore there has been erosion to create the valley. How?
Jefferson: I place economy among the first and important virtues, and public debt as the greatest of dangers. To preserve our independence, we must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt. We must make our choice between economy and liberty, or profusion and servitude. If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of caring for them, they will be happy.
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#29
My best guess is that the erosion above is due to wind and sand: not water. Here is water, wind erosion

[Image: southwallwestend.jpg]

That is the wall of the Sphinx by the way, and leads one to conclude that it is much older than officially acknowledged.
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#30
9500bc is pretty damn old. Oldest one was found 120 miles from Gobleki Tepp.
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#31
(09-16-2012, 12:44 AM)ghoullio Wrote: 9500bc is pretty damn old. Oldest one was found 120 miles from Gobleki Tepp.

I'm sorry Kris, but I'm not sure what you meant by "oldest one" being found 120 miles.
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#32
Before human beings land on Mars, I'm pretty sure that the time and distance for actual travel is going to have to be an essential factor in a successful venture.

To do that something is going to have to be done about getting a successful test flight on the speed of light (or a reasonable facsimile thereof.) accomplished.

In order for such a quest, such as what our astronauts undertook when they went to the Moon, to be successful, one must understand the simpler the better. I'm not stating that the astronauts' mission to the Moon was a cake walk, but the astronauts and mission control only dealt with the success of one mission--unlike a trip to Mars where a payload of material and needed goods will drop first. Hopefully undamaged and not contaminated. One must also consider that the trip to the Moon was something about three days, I believe--something doable.

So mostly one is looking at conquering the time and distance factor--as when Chuck Yeager broke the sound barrier, someone will have to get at least close to the speed of light and do it safely.

Maybe one other answer, which would be just as difficult if not more, would be traveling via wormhole--sort of like making a dot at the top of a sheet of paper and then placing a dot at the bottom of the paper. How does one conquer that amount of space? Fold the paper. S5
"The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations." `Thomas Jefferson

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#33
Most experts believe that many of the land formations on Mars--such as the Mariner Valley--were indisputably caused by the action of water. Enormous amounts of it. It seems unlikely that it all boiled away into space as air pressure lowered. Some people believe most of the water must have drained into underground reservoirs, and so could still be there to be utilized by colonists.

As for how long it takes for complicated stratification to form--pyroclastic flows and the actions of flood waters following the eruption of Mt. St. Helens, which dammed up a stream and then demolished the dam, releasing a wall of debris-laden water--produced identical stratification in less than a day.

"Up to 400 feet thickness of strata have formed since 1980 at Mount St. Helens.
. . . . "

"A deposit accumulated in less than one day, on June 12, 1980, is 25 feet thick and contains many thin laminae and beds."

Links: http://www.icr.org/article/261/
http://adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/2008AGUFM.V41C2093A
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#34
(09-16-2012, 11:20 AM)Ron Lambert Wrote: Most experts believe that many of the land formations on Mars--such as the Mariner Valley--were indisputably caused by the action of water.
-->
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/09/10...70939.html
Sanders 2020

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#35
(09-16-2012, 10:32 AM)Grizzly Wrote: So mostly one is looking at conquering the time and distance factor--as when Chuck Yeager broke the sound barrier, someone will have to get at least close to the speed of light and do it safely.

Why is it important to reach mars in less than ten minutes, or thereabouts?
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#36
(09-16-2012, 11:44 AM)John L Wrote:
(09-16-2012, 10:32 AM)Grizzly Wrote: So mostly one is looking at conquering the time and distance factor--as when Chuck Yeager broke the sound barrier, someone will have to get at least close to the speed of light and do it safely.

Why is it important to reach mars in less than ten minutes, or thereabouts?
I'm not stating that it has to be three minutes for example, but how about the same time it took to get to the Moon for starters? It shouldn't take 150-300 days to accomplish this solely because of how many things could go wrong and thus creating a less favorable outcome.

The way it is being done now is no problem, seeing that it is unmanned.

Nonetheless, the time and distance factor is something that should be improved. S22
"The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations." `Thomas Jefferson

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#37
(09-16-2012, 12:47 PM)Grizzly Wrote:
(09-16-2012, 11:44 AM)John L Wrote:
(09-16-2012, 10:32 AM)Grizzly Wrote: So mostly one is looking at conquering the time and distance factor--as when Chuck Yeager broke the sound barrier, someone will have to get at least close to the speed of light and do it safely.

Why is it important to reach mars in less than ten minutes, or thereabouts?
I'm not stating that it has to be three minutes for example, but how about the same time it took to get to the Moon for starters? It shouldn't take 150-300 days to accomplish this solely because of how many things could go wrong and thus creating a less favorable outcome.

The way it is being done now is no problem, seeing that it is unmanned.

Nonetheless, the time and distance factor is something that should be improved. S22

The only way I can see it as you envision is for all the mass of the mission(equipment, housing, food, fuel, etc) to be freighted to mars orbit first. Then using rockets that will use up great amounts of energy, moving low mass(passengers) to mars, in a speedy manner.

The key to this entire thing is moving mass. In order to do all that efficiently, it must be done slowly, AND have assistance from larger masses, such as this planet's spin(slingshot effect), the moon's gravity well, and perhaps another planet's gravity well. That is one of the major pluses for building a space elevator. The end of the elevator would be counterweighted and the further out, the faster the slingshot effect. This is absolutely The most practical way to get payloads to anywhere in the solar system. Period!

[Image: lossy-page1-300px-Space_elevator_structu...tc.TIF.jpg]

But remember, in order to accomplish this speed, Newton's Third Law must also be observed in reverse when arriving in the vicinity of mars. The mass must be slowed down, which also requires huge amounts of energy.

Perhaps teleportation would be in order here? S22
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#38
Another great idea, John. The more the fuel, the more problems you will have. S26
"The end of democracy and the defeat of the American Revolution will occur when government falls into the hands of lending institutions and moneyed incorporations." `Thomas Jefferson

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#39
(09-16-2012, 01:18 PM)Grizzly Wrote: Another great idea, John. The more the fuel, the more problems you will have. S26

Yes, common sense/logic applied once more, but this time to space travel. S22
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#40
One other thing of note. We have discovered, over the last 10-20 years, that the solar system is simply loaded with H2O everywhere. In fact, this planet is bombarded with tons of water daily. That is why we are net gainers of water. I would have to look it up again, but it is over fourteen tons each day, mostly in tiny amounts. But it is still significant.

H2O is very nice in that it provides us with oxygen to breathe, hydrogen to burn in the presence of that oxygen, and water to drink. Ain't that just Peachy? Just load up a large bladder with frozen H2O and take off for a destination. And use all that H2O for numerous things, which can be reused, or harvested 'en route'. If we have a HUGE scoop on the front of the craft, we could capture all those H2O molecules just floating around the solar system, and in the galaxy too for that matter. Again Ain't that just Peachy? S22
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