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Syria's WMD
#21
John,

Stop and think. It is 1960. You are our POTUS. Would you accept secret WMD from the USSR to help them avoid being caught with them?

That is what you are alleging Syria did with Iraq in 2003. They were sworn enemies. Remember, Syria was part of the Desert Storm deal.


There is no logic to this.

If you had said the Russians moved Iraq's inventory to Russia, I'd have looked into that.

The truth is Iraq destroyed everything they could , there is tons of our own evidence to support that. Don't you really think Bush hoped we'd find stuff and report on it to validate his war effort? He sent yes men and got no.

William,

Yea, Iraq, needing help from Russia against the USA could not possibly have invited prominent Russian citizens into their nation for anything BUT to get them to send WMD to Syria, who would have been brainless to have helped their enemy Iraq. They actually participated in Desert Storm earlier, you guys are not thinking here.

Jordan was Iraq's sole loyal friend in Arabia, if Hussein shipped that sstuff anywhere, Jordan or Russian would have gotten it.


It makes more logic Iraq would simply have unloaded the things on our troops. Lots more because it might have stopped us in our tracks. Only, Iraq gave them away to their enemy in Syria via Russia according to you so they were helpless as we invaded. Just makes 0 logic.
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#22
Sigh, Patrick, both Syria and Iraq may not have liked each other, but they were both clients of the USSR, and later Russia. They both received military assistance from her. And you think one would not allow the Russians to remove VX from one country and move them to the other, so as to keep Russia from having egg all over her face? What have you been smoking?

Hey, don't believe it is you don't wish to; thats your Liberty to do so. But I contend you are wrong, and have been saying this since 2003. The Russians moved the Iraq's VX into Syria.
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"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#23
Not really, John. Remember, Obama was unvetted - and the world took him at face value. (Or more realistically, the color of his face as a value.) To nations that thought a Black POTUS would mean better race relations, they were probably earnest in their beliefs, just terribly wrong. I'm sure there were palms hopefully held out in hopes of being rewarded - but much of what many people did was out of well-meaning ignorance. For that, blame the media.
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#24
Bill, whatever are you referring to? We are discussing VX being moved into Syria in 2003 , not Obama's vetting in 2008.

Colour me utterly confused here.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#25
Sorry, John that was meant for the Mt. Obama thread.

Hey, wait... This IS the Mt. Obama thread... remember when the Caribbean Mountain named for Obama was brought up? It was to give cover to the Generals who were given medals by Saddam for their part in Sarindar.

I was answering you when you said this:

(07-29-2012, 01:43 PM)John L Wrote:
(07-29-2012, 12:21 PM)quadrat Wrote: Very good, Bill. Why did a Carribean country name it's highest peak Mt. Obama? Because he gave them nucular weapons.

Out of sheer stupidity perhaps?

Or better yet, perhaps they were hoping to skim off some of that 'walking around' money he has been passing out? You know, the money we can no longer afford?
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#26
Given the reign of chaos and the turncoat culture in that region I wouldn't be surprised that WMD's where road-shipped from Iraq to Syria.
But that's just one theory which remains to be verified.

If the Russians moved chemical weapons from Iraq, IMO they loaded them on a warship and brought them back to Russia. (Russia has a naval base in Syira)
I can understand that Russians didn't want their chemical weapon production to be found by the americans.

What I understand less is why the Iraqis allowed the Russians to come and take all what they pleased from their arsenals.

If there were some WMDs shipped off Iraq, it must have been in small quantities.

Firstly because the quantities was not enough to save the regime.
Otherwise Saddam would have used them on the americans.
But the iraqis knew that dropping a few bombs on untrained rebelling villagers is not the same as on the most modern army of the world.

Secondly because the Russians were probably careful of not selling too much of such a stuff to someone like Saddam, especialy if we think of VX agents.
Then moving them out, was relatively easy. Bribery costs low.
There was certainly no line of trucks visible from space. Let alone identified by spy satellites as carrying chemical weapons. This is ridiculous.
More probably a few unnoticed 4x4 cars would have carried all of Saddam's WMD components.
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#27
Fred, the Russians didn't really make the VX. They offered assistance, and were associated with the production, which was supposed to have been stopped by treaty. They would have been terribly embarrassed publicly if all this came to light. As for shipping it back to Russia, why would they want all that dangerous material floating around there?

Of course they could have loaded it on a ship, and conveniently sunk it. But it was still good weapons material, expensive, and stable enough to last for decades. Why get rid of it?
___________________________________________________________________________________________________
"INSIDE EVERY PROGRESSIVE IS A TOTALITARIAN SCREAMING TO GET OUT" - David Horowitz

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#28
Sarindar had two missions: to secrete WMD materiels so that there is no trace that leads back to the sponsors, like Russia, but keep the programs viable, so that they can be turned back on in time - and to deep-six stockpiles that are too difficult to secrete. Going by Sarindar as historically operated in other countries, some stockpiles were seen as future capital, so the decision was made to hide it for financial reasons. Everything else was buried at sea or in the deep desert. (Some Iraqi aircraft were discovered mothballed in sand dunes.)
[Image: 36foxbataircraftiraq.jpg]
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#29
Iraqi aircraft are WMDs?
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#30
JL, IMO if the russian made all that efforts to secretely truck chemical weapons out of Iraq, it make sens to me that would not stop in the middle of the desert and dump them there to the Assad's tribe. It make more sens to me that they would drive the trucks straight to their naval base, load them on a ship and get it back safely to Russia.

Leaving them in Syria or wherever would leave an Amocles sword upon their heads. The US invade the next country and the whole thing must be done again.
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#31
(08-06-2012, 11:27 AM)quadrat Wrote: Iraqi aircraft are WMDs?
No - they are proof that Iraq had a program to hide things that they wanted to use later.
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#32
What? How does hiding jets = hiding WMD's? One is not the other, and doing one doesn't mean they did the other.
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#33
Well dude, come on. Think about it. If they can dig a hole in the sand then they are surely capable of hiding their entire WMD projects out in the desert. Holes = WMDs.
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#34
Fuck, you're right. I dunno how I didn't figure this out before. I mean, the scales literally just fell from my eyes. Send in the troops!

Somewhere in inner Tajikistan, someone is digging a hole to no good I bet.
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#35
War on Holes.


'Murrica.
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#36
I'll wage war on someone's hole.
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#37
(08-07-2012, 01:01 AM)WmLambert Wrote:
(08-06-2012, 11:27 AM)quadrat Wrote: Iraqi aircraft are WMDs?
No - they are proof that Iraq had a program to hide things that they wanted to use later.

Never mind. You are not the only crackpot out there, your pic is from a website called http://www.nationalufocenter.com
I wonder what it provides evidence for there.

Besides, one doesn't hide a hightech plane in loose sand, it's kaputt if you do so. One builds a bunker. Probably parked before a sandstorm, and vanished in the dunes within a few hours.
"You know, Paul, Reagan proved that deficits don't matter." Dick Cheney
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#38
(08-07-2012, 06:18 AM)ghoullio Wrote: Holes = WMDs.

This is too profound not to come back and comment!

Yes, of course. You make enough holes in the sand, in front of an advancing enemy's force, and you will have mass casualties.. classical WMD.

as for Sarindar: the primary goal of that project seems to be to show that Junior was not a homicidal maniac, thus Pacepa, innuendos and rumors. Without Sarindar, there was no justification whatsoever for murdering 200k or so Iraqis, thus Sarindar had to be invented, to please the righteous.

Sarindar Hoax is similar to the Global Warming Hoax .. both contain minimal elements of truth and come to erroneous conclusions.

Without doubts, Russia assisted Iraq and Syria is weapon programs, but it was not the only country doing it by far.

Quote:An Austrian company gave Iraq calutrons for enriching uranium. The nation also provided heat exchangers, tanks, condensers, and columns for the Iraqi chemical weapons infrastructure, which can hardly be said to be for energy. Singapore gave 4,515 tons of precursors for VX, sarin, tabun, and mustard gases to Iraq. The Dutch gave 4,261 tons of precursors for sarin, tabun, mustard, and tear gases to Iraq. Egypt gave 2,400 tons of tabun and sarin precursors to Iraq and 28,500 tons of weapons designed for carrying chemical munitions. India gave 2,343 tons of precursors to VX, tabun, Sarin, and mustard gases. Luxembourg gave Iraq 650 tons of mustard gas precursors. Spain gave Iraq 57,500 munitions designed for carrying chemical weapons. In addition, they provided reactors, condensers, columns and tanks for Iraq’s chemical warfare program, 4.4% of the international sales. China provided 45,000 munitions designed for chemical warfare. Portugal provided yellowcake between 1980 and 1982.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_and_we...estruction

And Syria had no need for Iraqi's VX, they most likely had a supply of their own (again, with international assistance), cf.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/syria/cw.htm

Unless Pacepa and his followers want to accuse the Assads of being VX-collectors (why else add some Iraqi VX to their own stocks?), perhaps it is the time to dismiss Sarindar?

And one more thing: even if so happens that Sarindar is true... does it absolve Junior in any way? To date, neither Iraqi nor Syrian VX killed anyone, whereas Junior did kill many thousands....

Now, how about this:

Quote:As part of Project 922, German firms such as Karl Kobe helped build Iraqi chemical weapons facilities such as laboratories, bunkers, an administrative building, and first production buildings in the early 1980s under the cover of a pesticide plant. Other German firms sent 1,027 tons of precursors of mustard gas, sarin, tabun, and tear gasses in all. This work allowed Iraq to produce 150 tons of mustard agent and 60 tons of Tabun in 1983 and 1984 respectively, continuing throughout the decade. Five other German firms supplied equipment to manufacture botulin toxin and mycotoxin for germ warfare. In 1988, German engineers presented centrifuge data that helped Iraq expand its nuclear weapons program. Laboratory equipment and other information was provided, involving many German engineers. All told, 52% of Iraq's international chemical weapon equipment was of German origin. The State Establishment for Pesticide Production (SEPP) ordered culture media and incubators from Germany's Water Engineering Trading.

May it be that Putin is a German spy and ordered Sarindar to cover the Nazi role in Iraq? This would make Pacepa and ilk essentially correct, and -- bingo -- absolve Junior!
Sodomia delenda est

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#39
Mine eyes deceive me, but I think it's MV?! I wondered where you went at times.

OK -- if Sarindar was invented, or whatever reasons for invading Iraq, then what did Junior want with invading that country originally? Paying tons of money to military contracting firms (KBR, etc)? Just because he felt like it? He ended the blood feud between Bushes and Saddam?
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#40
Transfer of Iraqi WMDs to Syria ---whether totally made up or has a small dose of truth -- most certainly was not the rationale for aggression; it is a later story planted to defend Junior's image and placate the weak-minded.

As for the WHY -- we still don't know. From your list, only the money reason seems possible, and I suspect that the general formula

Democrats : Republicans == Global Warming : WMD == Money to Solyndra : Money to Haliburton

is valid. Money paid to "friendly" companies of course return in the form of donations and much else. Both "parties" have hordes of true believers that need to be fed amusing stories, and the populace in general should be kept from understanding the system with funny stories told by Gores and Pacepas....

But was money laundering the sole or main reason? This is beyond me, and besides, even if it was one still needs to explain why specifically Iraq this time.
Sodomia delenda est

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